We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.

This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.

IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!

POPLA Decisions

1497498500502503

Comments

  • Car1980
    Car1980 Posts: 3,386 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker

    That's a procedural mistake by Jamie Macrae?

    If the appellant states that the vehicle is M1 type approved then it is for the operator to rebut that point and not the other way about - it is the operator who must provide evidence to show that the vehicle is commercial type approved.

    Sadly not. It's the opposite of county court, where the onus is on the appellant, even if that involves not being able to prove a negative.
    But with two caveats - any old landowner agreement is a pass and any old signage is a pass.

    The POFA point is black and white though. You can't use "I am satisfied that…" and dismiss a factual error in law just because you want to.

  • Car1980
    Car1980 Posts: 3,386 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker

    The entry signage does not explain the car park terms, rather it outlines to a driver that they are entering private land where terms and conditions apply

    Absolute drivel.

    3.1.1.

    An entrance sign must be displayed and maintained at the entrance to controlled land to inform drivers as appropriate whether parking is permitted subject to terms and conditions, including payment, or is prohibited.

    3.1.2.

    The entrance sign must display:

    b) whether payment is required, or whether free parking is only available for a limited period;

    e) where payment is required, whether on-site cash payment is available.

  • Car1980
    Car1980 Posts: 3,386 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker

    The appellant states the signage at the entrance to the site is not conspicuous when arriving in poor light and they havea provided a photo. The operator states in their reply this photo shows the sign is attached to a lamp post. This is true but in the photo the light from above does not reach down as far as the sign. The photo show sit is not a large sign and its very poorly illuminated. I have referenced SCOP Section 3 Signs and I am not satisfied the entrance sign was sufficiently illuminated and obvious to convey to an incoming driver that there were terms applicable to parking in the site. I am allowing the appeal on this basis.

    Well done, but 99% of other assessors wouldn't have entertained this, considering no entrance sign is EVER illuminated.

    This is the problem with Popla - zero consistency.

  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 44,870 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic

    This is the problem with Popla - zero consistency.

    And that’s exactly why it should not be open to ex call centre operators, nail technicians and the occasional author of adult literature, free rein to seemingly make assessments without any form of norm referencing!

    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    #Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • yarpsnehpets
    yarpsnehpets Posts: 140 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 4 August at 7:52AM

    I'm not sure - is what you state not the IAS MO?

    POPLA is different.

    As far as I knew, POPLA requires that the Appellant make an appeal setting out their appeal points. The operator is then require to respond by rebutting each appeal point / providing their evidence. The Appellant is then invited to comment on the operators submission but cannot introduce addition appeal points at this stage (anti-hijacking protocol).

    Maybe others could comment.

    In this instance it seemed to me that the Appellant appealed stating that his vehicle was not a commercial vehicle (in law) - it therefore falls to the operator to rebut that appeal point by showing that it was a commercial vehicle - the operator's rebuttal was very weak so the Assessor appears to 'help them out' by questioning the Appellant's claim rather than applying the rules of the protocol. This happens quite a lot with POPLA. In the instance where the POPLA protocol appears to favour the Appellant, the Assessor ignores the protocol.

    I agree with your comments on POFA - POPLA Assessors consistently use paraphrasing of the mandatory requirements - this paraphrasing deliberately waters down the requirements of the legislation.

  • Car1980
    Car1980 Posts: 3,386 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 4 August at 10:00AM

    No, nothing in particular falls to the operator to rebut. It appears that way because the appellant submits their case first and the operator second. They just have to submit things for the ticklist - signs, photos and contract, although they could get into details and argue against particular points, but that hits profitability. It is the same system as the IAS, but the assessors are instructed to fail half instead of 95%.

    Everything falls on the appellant to provide evidence of everything they claim.

    In this instance it seemed to me that the Appellant appealed stating that his vehicle was not a commercial vehicle (in law) - it therefore falls to the operator to rebut that appeal point by showing that it was a commercial vehicle 

    Exact opposite I'm afraid. It IS a pink flamingo unless the appellant can prove it isn't.

Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 355.4K Banking & Borrowing
  • 254.7K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 456K Spending & Discounts
  • 248K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 605.4K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 178.9K Life & Family
  • 263.1K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
  • 37.7K Read-Only Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.