civil penalty £50

epitome

abetterfutureahead wrote: »

THEY DO NOT GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO COURT
They do not give you the opportunity to dispute the aledge offence

At the very minimum you could appeal -you can appeal any DWP decision on a GL24, and you will eventually have your day in court. .... or at least you should be able to. So it does not say this on the letter?

But will be interesting to see if it will be the same standard DWP appeal court or a different court.

Can you scan the letter in for us to read, or type it out word for word?

dookar

epitome wrote: »

First sensible question on the thread. More to the point, what happens if you refuse to pay it?

You can't, it's imposed and added to the overpayment amount rather than them asking you for some money

epitome

That's what I thought would happen, but must be able to appeal it.... right?

And it's a bit "off" if the DWP does not inform the customer of their right to appeal.

EDIT from the 2nd letter typed out below they obviously do inform of the right to appeal, so that's ok then.

sleepless_saver

epitome wrote: »

That's what I thought would happen, but must be able to appeal it.... right?

And it's a bit "off" if the DWP does not inform the customer of their right to appeal.

You can appeal ... I guess it would be GL24 for DWP, but this interesting link makes it clear that local authorities can impose these penalties if they want to as well.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/new-civil-penalty-for-claimant-error-fact-sheet.pdf?=1

abetterfutureahead

epitome wrote: »

Can you scan the letter in for us to read, or type it out word for word?

First letter dated 12 Feb, I received it 15/02/2013.

Important
Please read this letter carefully and give us as much information as possible.
We are looking at your Jobseekers Allowance award. Information obtained from Jobseekers Allowance indicates that you have not provided us with all the information we need or or did not provide information on time. As this means your benefit award may be affected we need to check your circumstances.

You are required to provide information, with your claim or when asked, which is correct and complete. You must correct any mistakes and tell us straight away if you are overpaid or if there are changes in your circumstances. if you do notdo this, you will have to repay any overpaid benefit, any overpayments which are your fault could also lead to a £50 civil penalty being imposed.

We therefore need you to tell us why you did not inform us about a change in your circumstancesie; Engage in part time work until 28/01/2013.

We will consider imposing the £50 civil penalty on the basis of the information you give us. It is therefore important that you tell us the reasons as soon as possible.

If we do not hear from you by 04/03/2013 we will consider inposing the £50 civil penalty on the basis of the information we have now.

If the £50 civil Penalty is imposed you would have to pay this in addition to repaying any overpayment.

We will write to you again telling you what we have decided.

What to do now
Please contact us on 0845 608 8637 by 04/03/2013 to give us your details. We can then arrange to call you back so we can check the information we have is correct and if there is a reason why you provided the wrong information.

If you normally have someone who helps you with your claim you may wish to show them this letter.

Please reply to the enquiry above and return in the envelope provided or telephone within 14 days from the issue of this letter.


I started a part time job on 23/01/13. I worked a full day. I went to the job centre the next day 24/01/2013 and told them I worked the day before and was going to work that afternoon. The officer noted the details and arranged an appointment for Tues 28/01/13 to hand in my wage slip and complete a B7 declaration of hours and earnings. I attended that interview. I was kept waiting 50 minutes by the officer. He completed the B7 with details given by me and I signed it. He photocopied my wage slip.
2 weeks later I again completed a B7 and had my wage slips photocopied. I continued to sign on because the job was for 15 hours per week and I wanted to continue receiving N.I. credits. I did not receive any jobseekers allowance as I earned more than £71.
On 21/01/13 I went to the job centre to sign on handing in my B7 and wage slips. I asked the officer about the above letter and showed him it. He advised me to use the free phones at the entrance to ring the number provided on the letter.
I rang the number and spoke to some one in Torquay. I asked what information was required. The woman said they were missing the first wage slips and 2 wage slips appeared to be the same.
I told her to check the tax week numbers and the gross to date and it was clear these wage slips were for consecutive weeks where I received the same amount of pay. (the employer pays by the minute! strange maybe, but quite generous in my beleif)
I asked if that was all she needed to know and she said yes that was all.
The job centre staff photocopied all the wage slips again and gave me a copy of a "client conversation print" confirming the details ( CSTMR ATTENDED ENQ APPT TO DECLARE PT WORK. A15C TO JSA MAINT, B7 ISSD AND LMU NOTED )

I then received a letter dated 04/03/13

NOTICE OF OVERPAYMENT
Overpayment of Jobseekers Allowance (income based)
Amount overpaid - £71-00
Period of Overpayment - 18/01/13 to 24/01/13
Civil penalty amount - £50.00
Total to Repay - £121.00

We recently wrote to you about a change to your Jobseekers Allowance (Income based), as a result of this change you have been overpaid.

If you would like any independant advice on this matter, you can contact a local Citizens Advice Bureau, Wefare Rights unit or the Community legal services. You can ask any of these organisations to contact us on your behalf.

The overpayment occurred because on 24/01/13 yiy circumstances changed and the office that paid your benefits was not told at the correct time that you received earnings from part time work. If you need more information about why you were paid too much benefit please contact us on the number above (0845 608 8837) The overpayment must be repaid under social security law.
If you already have an amount to pay back. the balance of the overpayment will be added to it.
Civil Penalty
We have decided that a civil Penalty of £50 is appropriate because you failed, without reasonable excuse, to provide information as required, resulting in an overpaymentof benefits to you, The amount of the Penalty has been added to the overpayment above under Social security law, you must pay this penalty in addition to paying back the overpayment
More information and what happens next
If you would like more information about how this overpayment was worked out, or why the Civil Penalty has been applied please contact us. The telephone number is at the top of this letter (0845 608 8637) If you need to make contact in a different way please let us know
You also have the right to appeal against the decision that the overpayment must be repaid and if one has been applied, the decision to impose a Civil Penalty. Further information is available on the page called "Questions you might have about our decisions including what to do if you disagree with the decisions.
How to Pay
Your account has been referred to our debt management team who will be acting on our behalf to recover this money. All Payments need to be made to Debt Management We have sent details of how to pay and how to contact Debt Management with this letter.
Your sincerely
Lesley ********
Operations Manager

Woooo that took some time typing, I would have scanned it but Im not allowed to attach items as Im still a newbie.
Anyway to continue:

I took the letter to the jobcentre on Thursday 07/03/13 and showed my advisor. He was not aware of these Civil Penalties and went to show it to another officer, who also was unaware of them and had not seen one before.
I was unable to use the free phone as I had a doctors appointment but rang the number above when I got home. A futher 10 phone calls were made by me getting passed from pillar to post. Eventually one emailed Sunderland asking them to contact me but I was informed it would be anytime before 4-30. I asked if they could be as quick as possible as I wanted to go to the citizens advice. ( I never got to go as the whole sorry saga continued all day) I briefly spoke to a stroppy young woman, dont know her name or where she was from because she hung up on me , but before she did she said I had failed to contact them before the 4th of March. I told her I had spoken to someone on the 21st Feb. I was so upset by the whole situation I went back down to the job centre and saw my advisor again. He advised me to appeal the decision. I had already typed a letter of complaint which he attached to the GL24. He also took a copy of my calls that day.

Yesterday morning I received a call from the officer at Sunderland who had imposed the civil Penalty. Again a stroppy young man. I asked if the conversation was being recorded he told me it wasnt as they dont have the facilities, I then asked if there was anyone listening to the conversation, He said the room was full of people. I requested that a manager listen, he then told me his line manager was present. He accused me of calling him a liar. I had not I said "what proof do you have that you tried to contact me on 12/02/13" He said none he didnt have to !!! I checked my mobile and home phone and there are no 0845 numbers in my log. The officer ended the phone call when I asked to speak to his manager.
One minute later the manager rang me back and we spoke at great legnth. I wont divulge the contents of the conversation at the moment until I hear about the appeal.
I have an appointment at my M.P's office on Monday.

Sorry if my earlier posts dont make much sense but I was really upset and stressed, I havent slept for 2 nights with worry.
Thanks to everyone offering advice

epitome

Ok, (thanks for typing it out it has helped a lot)

I think I understand it now. They have issued a penalty after the 4th March because -they say- they had no contact from you giving your reasons before that decision was made.....so they used what evidence they did have -which was incorrect- and issued the penalty.

Now you have appealed, they will look at the decision again with the new evidence and I am 100% certain the decision will be overturned. You did include the print out of the "client conversation print" in with your appeal...?
And presumably the "client conversation print" is dated 28/01/2013 ?
They booked that appointment for you on the 24/01/2013 so you have proof that you did inform them straight away.

The £50 fine is for not providing information of the work on 23/01/2013 in reasonable time. You clearly did provide the information of change of circumstances, so they cannot fine you.

The £50 fine has nothing to do with not contacting them before the 4th March, so you don't have to argue that you did contact them on 21/02/2013. This is irrelevant.... I know it's annoying for you...but the fact is, they have made the decision now, and you should not waste your time arguing this point as it has no bearing on the "£50 penalty case".

You have had good help (it appears) from the jobcentre staff and this will all go away when they reconsider the decision.

I assume you did earn more than £71 on the 23/01/2013 ?

And I thought all benefit centre phone conversations were recorded by the computer, I could be wrong, and I suppose it does depend on the officer logging on to a particualr peice of software before making the call, if they are not logged on then there would be no call reference. for the recording. I will try to check up on that.

Ziggazee

abetterfutureahead wrote: »

THEY DO NOT GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO COURT
They do not give you the opportunity to dispute the aledge offence

Incorrect......the Civil Penalty carries exactly the same dispute rights as any other decision, i.e. a Reconsideration or an Appeal

abetterfutureahead

epitome wrote: »

I assume you did earn more than £71 on the 23/01/2013 ?

And I thought all benefit centre phone conversations were recorded by the computer, I could be wrong, and I suppose it does depend on the officer logging on to a particualr peice of software before making the call, if they are not logged on then there would be no call reference. for the recording. I will try to check up on that.

Thanks for replying,

On the 23/01/13 I worked and earned I think £56 on the 24/01/13 I think I earned £35. My wage slip is dated 24/01/13
I sign on at 11-30am and I worked after this time I think I started round about 1-00pm.

The manager at Sunderland benefit agency confirmed they have no way of recording conversations. I admit I was gobsmacked!
I asked him what would happen if I called him a nasty name he admittted it would be his word against mine. I then asked him what would happen if I said something illegal and threatening and he admitted there was nothing in place to record what anyone said!!! I told him my son works in a call centre and has every minute of his day recorded, every toilet visit, all calls etc.. My son is quite young but has learnt quickly that he has to cover his back. Benefit agency staff dont have to, its their word against yours and apparently their word is beleived more then yours !!!! Thankfully I always try to record everything

abetterfutureahead

Ziggazee wrote: »

Incorrect......the Civil Penalty carries exactly the same dispute rights as any other decision, i.e. a Reconsideration or an Appeal

Yes I can appeal, and I have but the appeal is done by the very same people who enforced the civil penalty!
You are not given the opportunity of the it being looked at and considered by an independant body like a court. There is no one to go to for an unbiased consideration.

epitome

abetterfutureahead wrote: »

Thanks for replying,

On the 23/01/13 I worked and earned I think £56 on the 24/01/13 I think I earned £35. My wage slip is dated 24/01/13
I sign on at 11-30am and I worked after this time I think I started round about 1-00pm.

That's ok then, the £71 JSA for that week becomes an overpayment.

Unbelievable about Benefit Centres not recording their calls. (not doubting you).

Your case will go to a court of appeal automatically if they do not overturn the decision on reconsideration.