Yorkshire high surface water & Thames high usage ?

2013yearofthehouse

I have a couple of queries regarding 2 properties in different regions, so the pricing is not really comparable, but I would like to know whether they are "about right" individually - hoping someone in a similar circumstance or with knowledge of existing general prices for each company can help

For a 1 bed flat using Yorkshire Water I am being charged about £48/year for surface water. I understand this has to be shared among everyone, but wondering if this fixed rate is at least different for different types of properties and that I'm on the right one? For a detached house using Thames Water only about £25/year is charged for surface water - this makes my £48/year for 1 of 180 flats in a 6 storey building seem really high! Wondering what kind of prices other people pay for surface water - is it usual that different water companies prices vary so much, especially for such different property types?

Also, I'm having trouble figuring out whether or not the meter at the detached house is seemingly registering more water than it should.
Usage companion:

Flat
5-7 showers/week
1-2 washing machine loads/week
1-2 dishwasher uses/week
dual flush toilet 5-10 flushes/day
40-50 units/year for a total of about £170-180

House
4-6 showers & 1 bath/week
2-3 washing machine loads/week
1980s & 1990s toilets 10-15 flushes/day
120-140/year for about £320-360

To me the house usage sounds a bit high for the amount of activity, but I'd be grateful for any other comparisons as I'm not sure?

Could the older toilets with extra flushes in the house really make that much of a difference? I've tried a few online water calculators and they still seem to suggest it's quite high.

Thanks

Cardew

The first thing to check is if you can claim relief from the Surface Water charge. You only pay if your surface water enters the sewerage system. - Look up Surface Water Drainage(SWD) on this site.

Each water company has a different method(s) of charging for SWD - you can look it up on their websites. My company(Severn Trent) have 3 bands for flat or terrace, semi-det, detached.

Average water consumption is approx 55 cubic metres per person per year.

For toilet water consumption read:

http://www.waterwise.org.uk/pages/indoors.html#2





Toilets use about 30% of the total water used in a household.


There are around 45 million toilets in UK homes, using an estimated two
billion litres of fresh water every day.





Over seven million of those are old style single flush toilets which use 13
litres of water per flush.





Approximately five million are the latest low-flush models which are more
water-efficient dual-flush toilets and use only six litres for a full flush and
four litres with a reduced flush





Considering the average household flushes 5000 times per year, savings of up
to 5000 litres per year could be achieved just by simply installing a cistern
displacement device (CDD). These are available for free from most water
companies. These devices are easy to install and are placed in the toilet
cistern to displace approximately one litre of water every time you flush.

2013yearofthehouse

Thanks for replying.

I'm not sure if the flat should be charged for surface water, it's rented and in a modern block about 5 years old. Do I have to know for certain and/or have proof? or can I ask Yorkshire Water? Would they even tell me if other flats in the block have stopped paying for surface water?


The house meter is registering higher than 55 per person per year, more like 70-80 (if both of us were there all year) and we don't even use water in the garden or for the cars, so it's just flushing, washing and drinking/cooking, for which we don't think we do excessively.

I asked Thames Water and they said that for the periods when 2 people are living at the house the usage is more as expected for 3 people and when it's only 1 person it's in line with 2 people's usage. They basically said it was all down to the shower (which I think is a power shower) but I've taken a few daily readings and found that a day without a shower/bath is about 250 litres and a day with 1 is about 300 litres, so it doesn't seem to make much difference. Plus showered a few times with the plug in and the bath only filled about 50-75%. For some reason though, despite these daily readings (that I took for about a week), the weekly readings I have for the last few months are always between 2 and 3 units per week. The shower/bath isn't used everyday, but even if it was, my daily readings suggest the weekly reading should be a maximum of 2.1, so I'm really not sure why the readings are higher.

Have ordered 2 CDDs as suggested and will try to mostly use the "younger" toilet from now on to see if that makes a difference.

Cardew

2013yearofthehouse wrote: »

Thanks for replying.

I'm not sure if the flat should be charged for surface water, it's rented and in a modern block about 5 years old. Do I have to know for certain and/or have proof? or can I ask Yorkshire Water? Would they even tell me if other flats in the block have stopped paying for surface water?


.

It would be almost certain that a 5 year old building should not be paying for SWD - it would be highly unlikely for planning permission to be granted if surface water entered the sewerage system.

However the 'default' position for all properties is to be charged for SWD and occupants claim relief.

You should ask other occupants of the flats, although many people are unaware of the situation and may also be paying.

I would simply put in a claim and 'invent' where the soakaway(s) are situated. The downpipes from the roof may give a clue and Yorkshire Water may just concede the claim if others in the building have got relief.

If you do it now(before April - i.e. 2012/13 year)) they may backdate to last April.

2013yearofthehouse

Yorkshire water have sent me a form to fill in - I have to draw a plan of the drainage, but like you said I'll have to guess! The letter they sent says I will receive a reduced charge from 1st April, but they will not back date the rebate. It's frustrating knowing that out of the £480 you've paid someone, £200 of it was unnecessary!

Edit: I've just read a few other threads and they seem to suggest that if the water company had prior knowledge that the building should not be charged for surface water then you can have a refund? Is that right? Would that apply here, as the building was only built in 2008?

Cardew

2013yearofthehouse wrote: »

Yorkshire water have sent me a form to fill in - I have to draw a plan of the drainage, but like you said I'll have to guess! The letter they sent says I will receive a reduced charge from 1st April, but they will not back date the rebate. It's frustrating knowing that out of the £480 you've paid someone, £200 of it was unnecessary!

Edit: I've just read a few other threads and they seem to suggest that if the water company had prior knowledge that the building should not be charged for surface water then you can have a refund? Is that right? Would that apply here, as the building was only built in 2008?

That reduced charge should be backdated to April 2012. Provided you apply this month.

You should bear in mind that it is a provision of the Water Act that the default position is that a SWD charge should be made and the customer claim for it to be waived.

The position on backdating is quite clear from Ofwat - the company is not required to backdate beyond the financial year.

The problem is that bills are processed by 'The Computer' and untouched by human hand, so there is no way that the computer can be aware if a property has a soakaway or not.

I could live in a 60 year old property at No1 Arcadia Avenue and should pay SWD, but my neighbour at No2 had his house built 5 years ago and has a soakaway so should not pay SWD.

That said if you make enough fuss you might get a longer backdating just to 'get you off their backs';)

2013yearofthehouse

Thanks.

So other than making a fuss, they are not likely to back date simply because other flats in the same block have been not paying the charge for several years? Even though that would mean Yorkshire Water are well aware that no-one in the whole block should be paying

Cardew

Hi,

These two threads will be of interest.


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/55743403#Comment_55743403


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/58979679#Comment_58979679

2013yearofthehouse

Just found out today, Yorkshire water reckon the SWD charge is correct, so I'm confused, as I was fairly sure it has soakaways, plus like you said, with it only having been built in 2008, it was unlikely the SWD charge was applicable.

Cardew

2013yearofthehouse wrote: »

Just found out today, Yorkshire water reckon the SWD charge is correct, so I'm confused, as I was fairly sure it has soakaways, plus like you said, with it only having been built in 2008, it was unlikely the SWD charge was applicable.

I would challenge their ruling and ask what inspection they have carried out to determine that the surface water enters the sewerage system.

If the dispute cannot be settled, get the Consumer Council for Water involved. http://www.ccwater.org.uk/

2013yearofthehouse

Sorry just realised I didn't thank you for your last post, so thanks!

Challenged them and have had another letter - all it says is:

We've confirmed that your property is connected to the public sewer for the removal of surface water via foul sewerage. This means your charges are correct and payable.




I'm not really sure if I'm right or they are, so not sure whether to get the cc for water involved, as I can't really say I know what i'm talking about!