Please help with Orange

brendonx

Right i'll start from the beginning...

I took out mobile phone contract through phones4u on orange and got the samsung galaxy s3. I gave the advisor all my details including my direct debit details to set it up with orange (like i have done before with phones4u with no problems).

Then after the first bill date I get a text message to say my phone has been blocked for outgoing calls and texts due to non payment. I rang up and was told I had no direct debit set up which I then explained I gave all my details over to the phones4u advisor. Ok this may be phones4u's fault but this is not the actual problem. I paid the bill there and then and the orange guy unblocked my phone within a few hours, he also set up an direct debit with me there and then. I then assumed my payments will be taken out this way.

Not long after my bill should of came out (No i never checked my bank as I assume it would've came out as all my others do without a problem.) I logged onto my online orange account to find a message saying "your online account has been blocked due to non payment, if it is not paid within the next 5 days we will have to block outgoing calls and texts. Naturally i paid this there and then.

My next bill comes which was a bit higher as I had to call the USA and I had a high spending month but made sure there was enough in my account to cover my bill which was £48. I then got a letter from my bank for a payment which had failed for £85 from orange which i endured an £8 charge for. I then rang orange to ask why the hell they tried to take out £85 to which the advisor explained it was for 2 months. I told her I paid last months already. She then 'looked further into my account' and noticed yes you did manually so the direct debit was already in place to take out the 2 months worth. I told her I paid that like 12 days ago and it doesn't take 12 days for a computer to update. She told me I still had to pay £48. I told her I don't have that anymore until I get paid to which she said ok but the direct debit will try again in 10 days so make sure there is money ready then. As I was being paid in 4 days this was not a problem. I made sure I asked her how much will try to come out again and she said only what you owe.

Meanwhile I got a letter from Orange stating that my direct debit had failed and it will try again in 10 days. On this letter it said. Direct debt failure: £85 unpaid bill: £45

Well 10 comes and I check my bank statements and yes you guessed it £85 came out. I rang up (rather !!!!ed off by this point) and basically shouted down the phone to the poor advisor. He explained that the direct debit that failed will try again at the same amount. I said thats not what the advisor told me 10 days ago. He apologized and said he would credit my account the amount that was over paid and that my next bill will reflect this. I left it as that and said that was fine, but told them that if they took too much out again I would be cancelling my contract due to breach of contract.

My next bill was £1.94. I checked my bank yesterday to my horror they took £39 out of my account. I rang up immediately and explained to them this was unacceptable. They said we will credit your account, to which I said no way I want my money back and the £8 charge I received on the last one which the advisor said he would do, but it will take 10 days. I was boiling over by this point and said no it took you less than a day to take it from me without my permission so it will take you the same time to send it back. He kept refusing to budge so I asked to speak to his manager.

When I got to his manager he used his authority to reduce the time down to 3 days. I said if your able to do it in 3 days you should be doing that regardless of you needed to authorise it to everyone.

He also said he'll compensate me £`5 in credit for the hassle I have had. I explained I wont be reaching my next bill to receive that credit as I will be cancelling. He said there will be a charge for this.

I explained to him there will not be a charge as you have breached my contract. He tried to say they haven't, but when I said that no where in my contract does it say "I will pay orange more than i owe" he finally admitted it was a breach of contract, but that there will still be a charge, he then said he was a manager in the billing department and that I would have to argue it out with the manager in the cancellation department.

Well I haven't phoned the cancellation department yet as I am waiting to get my money back first before I do.

Before I hung up I asked the manaer a question...

"Do you think what you have done on 2 occasions now is theft?"

He said that is a hard question to answer. To which I said it is hard because it is true, that if I went into one of your stores and took money from you till without your permission I would be arrested for theft. So what you have done is exactly the same.

I also asked him this question...

"What would orange do if I decide not to pay my bills?"

He said they would first send out a letter then after a few days block outgoing message and calls. Then after 2 months block incoming as well, then 3rd month cancel the contract and call in debt collectors.

I then said well then maybe I should get debt collectors on orange then for taking money without my permission. He got a bit jittery at this stage and said well the refund has already been proceed so I wouldnt be able to.

Has anyone else had problems like me?
Have you able to get out of your contract without a charge because of it?

I have only been with them for 4-5 months and had problems from day 1. Not with the phone but orange.

I will be fighting to cancel my contract without the charge. I will be talking to my solicitor. And I have the fortunate situation where as my wife is in law school training to be a barrister, and I can get the students there to use my case if it has to go to court to fight my case for me and won't cost me to use them.

Brendon Harris

grumbler

Well, your solicitor and your wife will give you a better advice than you can get here. IMHO errors with payments can be a reason for a complaint, possibly for some compensation, but not for contract termination without charges.

From a practical point of view the problems started because of your assumptions. Unless your bill says that the payment will be taken by a DD you have no grounds to assume that it will. And if the bill says that the payment will be taken you cannot assume that it will not because of some extra payments.

When problems started, the best solution was to cancel the DD and to make manual payments until everything is sorted.

Techhead_2

Also, emotionally ranting at people and asking rhetorical questions was not the best way to get this sorted. It's time to act in a straightforward and logical way.

oopsadaisydoddle

brendonx wrote: »

Right i'll start from the beginning...

I took out mobile phone contract through phones4u on orange and got the samsung galaxy s3. I gave the advisor all my details including my direct debit details to set it up with orange (like i have done before with phones4u with no problems).

Then after the first bill date I get a text message to say my phone has been blocked for outgoing calls and texts due to non payment. I rang up and was told I had no direct debit set up which I then explained I gave all my details over to the phones4u advisor. Ok this may be phones4u's fault but this is not the actual problem. I paid the bill there and then and the orange guy unblocked my phone within a few hours, he also set up an direct debit with me there and then. I then assumed my payments will be taken out this way.

Not long after my bill should of came out (No i never checked my bank as I assume it would've came out as all my others do without a problem.) I logged onto my online orange account to find a message saying "your online account has been blocked due to non payment, if it is not paid within the next 5 days we will have to block outgoing calls and texts. Naturally i paid this there and then.

My next bill comes which was a bit higher as I had to call the USA and I had a high spending month but made sure there was enough in my account to cover my bill which was £48. I then got a letter from my bank for a payment which had failed for £85 from orange which i endured an £8 charge for. I then rang orange to ask why the hell they tried to take out £85 to which the advisor explained it was for 2 months. I told her I paid last months already. She then 'looked further into my account' and noticed yes you did manually so the direct debit was already in place to take out the 2 months worth. I told her I paid that like 12 days ago and it doesn't take 12 days for a computer to update. She told me I still had to pay £48. I told her I don't have that anymore until I get paid to which she said ok but the direct debit will try again in 10 days so make sure there is money ready then. As I was being paid in 4 days this was not a problem. I made sure I asked her how much will try to come out again and she said only what you owe.

Meanwhile I got a letter from Orange stating that my direct debit had failed and it will try again in 10 days. On this letter it said. Direct debt failure: £85 unpaid bill: £45

Well 10 comes and I check my bank statements and yes you guessed it £85 came out. I rang up (rather !!!!ed off by this point) and basically shouted down the phone to the poor advisor. He explained that the direct debit that failed will try again at the same amount. I said thats not what the advisor told me 10 days ago. He apologized and said he would credit my account the amount that was over paid and that my next bill will reflect this. I left it as that and said that was fine, but told them that if they took too much out again I would be cancelling my contract due to breach of contract.

My next bill was £1.94. I checked my bank yesterday to my horror they took £39 out of my account. I rang up immediately and explained to them this was unacceptable. They said we will credit your account, to which I said no way I want my money back and the £8 charge I received on the last one which the advisor said he would do, but it will take 10 days. I was boiling over by this point and said no it took you less than a day to take it from me without my permission so it will take you the same time to send it back. He kept refusing to budge so I asked to speak to his manager.

When I got to his manager he used his authority to reduce the time down to 3 days. I said if your able to do it in 3 days you should be doing that regardless of you needed to authorise it to everyone.

He also said he'll compensate me £`5 in credit for the hassle I have had. I explained I wont be reaching my next bill to receive that credit as I will be cancelling. He said there will be a charge for this.

I explained to him there will not be a charge as you have breached my contract. He tried to say they haven't, but when I said that no where in my contract does it say "I will pay orange more than i owe" he finally admitted it was a breach of contract, but that there will still be a charge, he then said he was a manager in the billing department and that I would have to argue it out with the manager in the cancellation department.

Well I haven't phoned the cancellation department yet as I am waiting to get my money back first before I do.

Before I hung up I asked the manaer a question...

"Do you think what you have done on 2 occasions now is theft?"

He said that is a hard question to answer. To which I said it is hard because it is true, that if I went into one of your stores and took money from you till without your permission I would be arrested for theft. So what you have done is exactly the same.

I also asked him this question...

"What would orange do if I decide not to pay my bills?"

He said they would first send out a letter then after a few days block outgoing message and calls. Then after 2 months block incoming as well, then 3rd month cancel the contract and call in debt collectors.

I then said well then maybe I should get debt collectors on orange then for taking money without my permission. He got a bit jittery at this stage and said well the refund has already been proceed so I wouldnt be able to.

Has anyone else had problems like me?
Have you able to get out of your contract without a charge because of it?

I have only been with them for 4-5 months and had problems from day 1. Not with the phone but orange.

I will be fighting to cancel my contract without the charge. I will be talking to my solicitor. And I have the fortunate situation where as my wife is in law school training to be a barrister, and I can get the students there to use my case if it has to go to court to fight my case for me and won't cost me to use them.

Brendon Harris

If you look at your bills it tells you how much will be taken by DD and when.

Getting out of your contract is not going to happen. It is unclear as to whether it is your assumptions that have led to this as Grumbler says.

If they have made the mistake then all they are obliged to do is rectify it. Maybe by compensating for bank charges if their fault and removing any adverse data from your credit file.

brendonx

Assumptions? I set up a direct debit. When you do that it should come out. The problem lays with orange failing to take it out in the first place. The problem lays with orange taking out too much money. This is a breach of contract I even got someone to admit it at orange and you can get a contract cancelled for a breach of contract.

grumbler

brendonx wrote: »

Assumptions?

Yes. The word 'assumed' was used twice in your post.

I set up a direct debit. When you do that it should come out.

You can't set it up. You just give your permission to set it up and it's the company that does this. It takes time and is beyond your control.

The problem lays with orange failing to take it out in the first place. The problem lays with orange taking out too much money. This is a breach of contract

What part of the contract exactly? I think you'll need help of both your wife and the solicitor to find this. The last time I dealt with a solicitor he cost me a fortune, but ultimately failed to help.
It would be a breach if they charged you extra and refused to refund the money.

I even got someone to admit it at orange and you can get a contract cancelled for a breach of contract.

Yes, you can. For a real breach.

I think it's time to chill out and to check what exactly your bills said.

brendonx

I know what my bills were. they were not £85 or £39 at the times when they took it out.

You know what people on here are not actually helpful at all. So after this post I wont be even looking at it again. Helpful is actually helping not siding with a company that is stealing from someone.

grumbler

Well, if the bills were for a smaller amounts than they've actually taken you have a very strong case for complaining and demanding compensation. That said, you could have just called your bank and demanded an immediate refund under the DD guarantee.

geoffken

Oh God
Another one who does not like the advice and takes his toys away.
If is wife is a legal bod perhaps she will give him some FREE advice.
"Calm down dear" nobody has died would be a start

StarM_2

Firstly, direct debits take time to set up, it isn't just down to when you complete the forms, they have to be processed at the company end and possibly even at the bank end (I've been out of the banking loop for a few years)

Depending on the exact nature of your direct debit, the first one coming out at essentially double what you expected could very well be correct.

Many direct debits are not adjusted to reflect interim payments made during that month. Vanquis is an example of a company who use such a system. Say for example, your first bill is £30 but the direct debit is somewhere in the nether awaiting processing, you opt to pay it manually. This goes through an entirely different system to the one that processes direct debits. Your next bill comes around which is £50, but as far as the DD system is concerned, you've not paid the previous one, so it adjusts the sum due to reflect this and attempt to take £80.

So much of this depends on what systems they have in place and how these systems interact. You aren't just dealing with an individual or an individual system, you are dealing with a large company with countless systems, and a bank.

You could argue that as they weren't clear that this was the case when you made the original payment, that they should make the adjustments and leave you alone. You could further argue that you are owed money and/or compensation. My opinion, is that the best course of action would be to get in touch with them again, politely explain that there have been a number of confusions with regards to billing in general and you would like a statement sent that reflects all payments made to date, as well as all charges and a clear breakdown of your standard monthly payments.

Once you have all of the above, you're in a much better position to deal with them on a level footing. You'll be using their own documents to negotiate and explain the situation, and they can't very well argue with their own content. If they hold to their position of you having to make the payment currently being requested, you then negotiate a reduced price plan for the next few months to cover the difference. Being a mobile provider and not a bank, I would wager that they're systems make it a whole lot easier to give you a discount on your current package than it does to mess around with the direct debits.

macman

brendonx wrote: »

I know what my bills were. they were not £85 or £39 at the times when they took it out.

You know what people on here are not actually helpful at all. So after this post I wont be even looking at it again. Helpful is actually helping not siding with a company that is stealing from someone.

'Helpful' means sometimes telling people what they do not want to hear. Little point in posting if you have 'in house'' legal advice, are convinced that you are in the right, and don't want to hear other opinions-that after all is the idea of a public forum. Which seems to have entirely escaped you.