Chargeback on dodgy gaming site

cooltt

Hahahahaha this board makes me laugh.
Anyway done loads of charge backs with no problem at all, if a merchant doesn't play fair neither do I.

Also wake up and look at the world around you people we're ripped off every day of our lives both legally and illegally. God talk about naive.

zagfles

madein83 wrote: »

I do a bit of online gambling. Just for fun, Betfair, BetOnMarkets, etc.

I put a €200 deposit on a Cyprus-based gaming site and won just over €280 back.

However, the withdrawal request has been pending for over 2 weeks. They won't answer e-mails or phone calls. It looks like they're unwilling to pay out.

This deposit was placed on a UK visa debit card.

Can I claim a chargeback from my bank (Natwest) for the original deposit? The claim would be made on the basis that I was purchasing the chance to win money and when I did win money, they failed to deliver the winnings.

Thanks in advance.

It might just be they're slow payers, have a read of the Matched Betting board, ISTR people saying some online bookies can take weeks or even a month or more to pay out.

madein83

cooltt wrote: »

Hahahahaha this board makes me laugh.
Anyway done loads of charge backs with no problem at all, if a merchant doesn't play fair neither do I.

Also wake up and look at the world around you people we're ripped off every day of our lives both legally and illegally. God talk about naive.

I don't think anyone disputes that. The problem is having to lie to get the result you want. If there's no facts backing up those lies, and you're caught out, the repercussions wind up being worse than the original problem.

I shouldn't have to lie and put myself at risk when I'm the one who has already been wronged. I'd only be adding to the problem. It's already a suspicious transaction having anything to do with gaming. Let's say these !!!!!!!s are ballsy enough to actually contest the chargeback. Maybe they took my IP address and obtained proof from my ISP that I was actually at the site. Maybe I filled in a Verified by Visa. Maybe something else I've forgotten.

Now they've got my money, the banks knows I'm lying, and I wind up with a black mark and a case of fraud on my doorstep. Meanwhile, they keep my money anyway, and I'm no better for it.

Am I entitled to my money back? Hell yeah. Should I have to lie about it to get it? Hell no. And if I can't get it? I use every legal channel available to me to pursue - the Cypriot gaming commission, every anti-fraud board I can find, Visa International Fraud department, forums, review sites, solicitors, anything I can in a free market to damage their brand and cost them future profits.

I am all for getting justice, but this industry is like insurance... you don't think you're doing anything wrong by adding a couple of extra items to the police report, but then everyone winds up doing it and people wonder why their premiums are up.

I'd rather be part of bringing transparency and honesty to an industry badly in need of it, than contribute to the problem for my own self-interest and then wonder why credit card acceptance is such a pain in the !!!!.

All I want is for the banks to acknowledge the service was not as advertised and return my money, in the same way that they would if this business were a high-street store.

madein83

zagfles wrote: »

It might just be they're slow payers, have a read of the Matched Betting board, ISTR people saying some online bookies can take weeks or even a month or more to pay out.

Could be and hopefully that's it. A few things ringing the alarm bells though:

• Low volume. I noticed the transaction #s between deposit and payout barely moved. I'm not sure how active this site is; maybe the free market money moved smartly to the guys that are actually paying out. Could be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but doesn't look like there are a whole lot of Peter's left.
• Ignored my e-mails
• Three phone numbers disconnected... US 1-800 # rings to infinity

Of course, I only discovered those AFTER making the withdrawal request... they were very approachable beforehand!

dalesrider

madein83 wrote: »

I hear you, and I appreciate your honesty. My annoyance isn't directed at you, and realise that you're not the spokesperson for Natwest!

It's the fact that, if sane, rational, normal people who work in the dispute industry cannot see that this is blatant theft and worthy of recompense... what chance do I have?

If that's the reality, so be it.

Personally YES, no lieing its not a good way to run a company. And the fact that they are not paying out is in a way theft.

Maybe try reporting to action fraud.

I like that you have been honest enough to NOT lie like some are suggesting.:mad:
Which really could bite you on the backside when the co comeback with your details.
In the end claiming fraud when its not is a good way to get a account closed down. As it means there is a breakdown in trust.

I wish you good luck in getting the money back.

chattychappy

Short answer: frankly I agree - call Natwest and see how for you get.

Long answer (not not really an answer!):

The only way you will get real advice as to your entitlement is to employ a lawyer with experience in financial regulation and compliance. Their hourly chargeout rate will likely be more than the amount involved here. £300/hour or more is typical. It takes years to qualify.

An operator on the phone will not give unbiased or legally qualified advice. They will give you an answer based on the training they have received based on their employer's chosen interpretation of regulations.

Many times on this board people have been told rubbish by their card providers about their legal rights. I've experienced this too. This is something that regulators are looking at because currently issuers are not generally liable for misrepresenting the law to their customer, particularly in the case of CCs. (There are exceptions - eg when "advising" on insurance - hence card protection plan/PPI fiascos.) Banks are, however, supposed to "treat customers fairly".The FOS website is full of stories of people whose claims were wrongly denied by their issuer.

OP: I expect you will get a negative answer from Natwest. If you wish to take it further, then all you can do is put the complaint in writing, (following Natwest's procedures) and go to the FOS.

I'm not saying you have a valid claim - I think this is too complicated for anyone to say. It's all very well people talking about T+Cs, but T+Cs are subject to unfair terms legislation (even in Cyprus). It may well be that the merchant is in breach of implied terms, or the T+Cs they are relying on are not enforceable.

Chargeback doesn't give you any direct legal rights or cause of action (unlike S75). It is a contractual arrangement between CCs, merchants and the network. On this basis you would have no claim against the card issuer if they didn't want to "help" you. But the FOS has said that they expect card providers to assist a cardholder via chargeback where available. "Industry" people here have said they think chargeback isn't available here because the service was provided. I think that's a grey area because of the T+Cs and to the extent they are enforceable/incorporated into what you agreed.

Financial institutions are also under a statutory obligation to reduce financial crime (which includes fraud). Again, I'm not saying that there is fraud here, but "small print" isn't everything. Ie you cannot construct a business model that is essentially fraudulent and then "contract out" of the fraud by covering yourself with clever T+Cs.

Finally, there can sometimes come a point where a card issuer will simply pay out (or compromise) because it is cheaper than continuing to fight.

On balance I'd "have a go". But it depends how much other stuff is going on in your life!

madein83

I did eventually get my money back from the gaming site, btw.

NeoDan

I waited for around two months for my 120$ in similar situation with gambling website.