Chargeback on dodgy gaming site

dalesrider

madein83 wrote: »

In my case, I paid money in order to receive the chance to win more back and what I actually received was a 100% guarantee of theft and loss.

How is it any different?

I do not disagree with you about its bad. And would feel just as peed off as you do.

I'm looking at it from a dispute point of view. Which is how NW staff will look at it.
As such, as the VIsa regs go there is nothing that covers this.

Only thing that would get anywhere near is non reciept of refund. But for that you need a refund reciept.
Date actioned - have to allow 15 days for refund to process.
Amount
Last 4 of card.

Odds on getting that....

As the gambling expert I'll let you decide.

As Meer53 said give NW a call. Just do not hold out much hope.

The fact that anyone could see this differently is actually causing a slight loss in my faith in humanity - or at least Internet forums

What do you want...
Honest and correct advice.
Or someone who says YES... You can do this... And when you ring NW they just laugh at you and your internet advice.

Seems a lot of people take their bat and balls home when the advise they get is not what they want to hear... Some even start new threads in the hope that they will get the advice they want to hear.

I could have said Yep as a dispute rep contact NW as you have a cast iorn case....
I bet you would be back screaming about that.

madein83

dalesrider wrote: »

Have to take it this alos covers debit card as they make no mention of this.

So if you are trying to take the whole 280 out.

FAQ

Crafty...

Yes, very crafty.

I spotted that myself earlier (not early enough), and made a point to request exactly €200 so there could be no dispute. I thought, I'll deal with the other €80 later. At this point, just getting my deposit back would be a result.

meer53

madein83 wrote: »

I understand the technical distinction, but if the original deposit was taken with the intention of out-right fraud, is that not grounds for a chargeback?

Consider a more mundane example. You pay for a table on a credit card. What you receive instead is a chair. In both cases, you're still receiving furniture... but it's not what you asked for, nor what you originally put your money down for.

In this case, the shop has failed to fulfil its contractual obligation and reason for the purchase, and either has to a) replace the chair with the table you actually asked for or b) refund your money.

In my case, I paid money in order to receive the chance to win more back and what I actually received was a 100% guarantee of theft and loss.

How is it any different?

We could discuss this until the cows come home.

You were given the chance to win, you won. Your query is not with your deposit, it's with your winnings. If Natwest are of the same opinion as myself and Dalesrider, which i feel they will be, you may need to take this further with the relevant authorities.Sorry, but i don't know who that would be.

madein83

dalesrider wrote: »

I do not disagree with you about its bad. And would feel just as peed off as you do.

I'm looking at it from a dispute point of view. Which is how NW staff will look at it.
As such, as the VIsa regs go there is nothing that covers this.

Only thing that would get anywhere near is non reciept of refund. But for that you need a refund reciept.
Date actioned
Amount
Last 4 of card.

Odds on getting that....

As the gambling expert I'll let you decide.

As Meer53 said give NW a call. Just do not hold out much hope.

I appreciate your perspective, and realise the technical distinction.

I don't expect anyone to be annoyed at the outcome, just merely for Visa/the bank to acknowledge that there should be no difference between one type of theft and another.

The card schemes have rigid terms in place. I know this as a business owner who accepts credit cards online. I know I cannot capture funds on a card post-authorisation until those goods have shipped. I know I cannot require a minimum price, or add surcharges for favouring cash over cards. These, and many others like them, are terms I acknowledge and agree to as a merchant account holder in exchange for the privilege of accept Visa and Mastercard as payment options on my website.

I have also experienced unfair chargebacks, and would not engage in such practices lightly. I've had customers receive their goods, claim they haven't, receive a refund, and then keep the goods anyway. I've had customers return products 3 months later that they themselves damaged, claiming "non-performance" of items -- and have watched the banks champion consumer rights on their behalf, happily giving customers their original funds, with a £25 chargeback fee slapped on top, irrespective of whether they were right or wrong or whether I was afforded a chance to rectify it first.

And so, in this instance, where I put money in good faith into a gaming site that offered the chance of winning a return on my investment if my luck came in, it was my understanding that these same protections would be afforded to me - as a consumer who purchased a service in the good faith that that service would be correctly and fairly rendered as advertised.

Now that I'm hearing from two dispute professionals that I have no chance whatsoever, it's saddening to hear that legitimate, fair and honest businesses such as my own seem fair game to excessive chargebacks... and yet gaming sites that are set-up with the sole intention of theft, walk away with zero repercussion.

Is this seriously the case?

cooltt

OP. you've signed up with a dodgy casino so let that be a lesson to you only go with we'll known online casinos etc google them.
Anyway about the chargeback, yes you can do the charge back just tell Natwest that you didn't make this deposit. They ask you a few questions then get you to sign a form to say you didn't make the deposit and allow them to ask the merchant for proof that it was you that did it. The dodgy casinos like this one can't provide the proof required cause their obviously just ripping people off.
Natwest give you the money back straight away then contact you in 6 weeks to say they heard nothing blah blah blah.

Yes you may be dishonest getting your money back but so were the people that stole it from you.

madein83

dalesrider wrote: »

What do you want...
Honest and correct advice.
Or someone who says YES... You can do this... And when you ring NW they just laugh at you and your internet advice.

Seems a lot of people take their bat and balls home when the advise they get is not what they want to hear... Some even start new threads in the hope that they will get the advice they want to hear.

I could have said Yep as a dispute rep contact NW as you have a cast iorn case....
I bet you would be back screaming about that.

I hear you, and I appreciate your honesty. My annoyance isn't directed at you, and realise that you're not the spokesperson for Natwest!

It's the fact that, if sane, rational, normal people who work in the dispute industry cannot see that this is blatant theft and worthy of recompense... what chance do I have?

If that's the reality, so be it.

meer53

cooltt wrote: »

OP. you've signed up with a dodgy casino so let that be a lesson to you only go with we'll known online casinos etc google them.
Anyway about the chargeback, yes you can do the charge back just tell Natwest that you didn't make this deposit. They ask you a few questions then get you to sign a form to say you didn't make the deposit and allow them to ask the merchant for proof that it was you that did it. The dodgy casinos like this one can't provide the proof required cause their obviously just ripping people off.
Natwest give you the money back straight away then contact you in 6 weeks to say they heard nothing blah blah blah.

Yes you may be dishonest getting your money back but so were the people that stole it from you.

What a load of useless and bad advice.

If you look on the website the OP has used, i would hardly say it could be classed as a "dodgy casino" Give the OP some credit please ?

As for advising the OP to lie, i feel the OP will have more integrity than you seem to have. Did you read their last post about how they have been fleeced by people like you ?

grumbler

cooltt wrote: »

OP. you've signed up with a dodgy casino so let that be a lesson to you only go with we'll known online casinos etc google them.
Anyway about the chargeback, yes you can do the charge back just tell Natwest that you didn't make this deposit. They ask you a few questions then get you to sign a form to say you didn't make the deposit and allow them to ask the merchant for proof that it was you that did it. The dodgy casinos like this one can't provide the proof required cause their obviously just ripping people off.
Natwest give you the money back straight away then contact you in 6 weeks to say they heard nothing blah blah blah.

Yes you may be dishonest getting your money back but so were the people that stole it from you.

And what if the merchant provides the proof? The OP gets caught lying and cannot pursue anything more though the bank.

Do you know how many gamblers try saying that it was a fraudulent transaction after genuinely losing their money to a casino/bookmaker?

meer53

madein83 wrote: »

I hear you, and I appreciate your honesty. My annoyance isn't directed at you, and realise that you're not the spokesperson for Natwest!

It's the fact that, if sane, rational, normal people who work in the dispute industry cannot see that this is blatant theft and worthy of recompense... what chance do I have?

If that's the reality, so be it.

I'd be just as annoyed as you are, but disputes teams are limited by Visa International Chargeback Regulations and from what i can see, there is no regulation that covers your dispute. Maybe Natwest will find a way round it for you ?

I sincerely hope you ignore Cooltt's advice.

madein83

cooltt wrote: »

OP. you've signed up with a dodgy casino so let that be a lesson to you only go with we'll known online casinos etc google them.
Anyway about the chargeback, yes you can do the charge back just tell Natwest that you didn't make this deposit. They ask you a few questions then get you to sign a form to say you didn't make the deposit and allow them to ask the merchant for proof that it was you that did it. The dodgy casinos like this one can't provide the proof required cause their obviously just ripping people off.
Natwest give you the money back straight away then contact you in 6 weeks to say they heard nothing blah blah blah.

Yes you may be dishonest getting your money back but so were the people that stole it from you.

Even though that may be practical advice and appear to be justified, the fact is that I'd be putting my bank and Visa in the crosshairs and doing so under false pretenses.

The fact is, I DID know they'd bill me, and DID agree to that - just under the assumption that they perform.

My dispute is because of that fact. I should not have to engage in fraud to seek justice against fraud.

If Natwest or Visa don't feel my case is justified, that's fine - I shall not rely on the protections I thought I was entitled to in future, and shall instead pursue this via legal channels outside of the scope of my chosen payment method.

However, I will not fight fraud with fraud. This industry is frought with problems, and I've now experienced them on both sides of the fence. Lies are at the center of those problems, and I won't add to them!