Supermarkets pull items off shelves over meat fears

A._Badger

Cornucopia wrote: »

Is it just me or does this issue have all the hallmarks of fake scandal about it?

I can understand how a meat supply line gets cross-contaminated, and a few % of, say, pork gets into a beef line. That's carelessness.

But it defies belief that a product could ever get to be 100% horsemeat, given the mass production methods we are talking about. For that to happen, the entire meat source for a production run (of 1000s of packs) would have to be entirely horsemeat - tonnes of meat would be involved. Only fraud at a mammoth level combined with gross negligence on the part of the authorities and the retailers could produce this outcome, and I am not sure that I believe that.

I am also very skeptical about all the "what do we expect from cheap food" propaganda. Seems like just another way to bash the poor.

Do people who believe in the evils of mass production really think that the industry would only exploit cheap food?

I think fraud at a massive level is quite likely - which was why I posted the link to Dr Richard North's comments about his experience in the food industry.

It's clear from previous scandals over products like olive oil and the use of the banned food colouring Sudan Red, that corruption can never be ruled out.

The problem appears to be with a largely paper-only audit trail, which is used in place of regular, independent testing.

Edwardia

Sorry AB.. IMO Marion Nestle, who is quoted in Mark Bittmann's NYT article, has a bit of an obsession with calories and I guess I wasn't too concise there because the calorie obsession bugs me. Sorry.

Busted flush.. well I was being told in 2010 to take my meds and eat the high carb low fat *normal* diet by healthcare professionals in the NHS so I don't think the low fat mantra is in any way busted. When I decided to low carb it did feel like I was launching myself off a cliff !

I'm not an Atkins fan, I think he set low carb back many years because it was written off as a dangerous fad diet.

It seems to me that the governments will start moving away from low fat high carb piecemeal so that millions of people won't say well if I had ignored the dietary advice given I wouldn't have this illness..

From what the FSA chief exec told the Select Committee, it seems the FSAI DNA tests can find traces of DNA below the cross-contamination tolerances. That may mean a change to the regs or a need for better cleandown techiques or stipulating that production lines have to be species specific.

I'm quite willing to believe that some horsemeat er fell out of the back of a horsebox, maybe fairly regularly. That suppliers weren't too stringent because there wasn't a DNA test good enough to catch them.

As for the cheap food aspect, the market and supply chain have to be big enough so that the horsemeat goes un-noticed. If one factory is supplying lasagne to several European countries that seems like millions of lasagnes a year to me.

A._Badger

Edwardia wrote: »

Sorry AB.. IMO Marion Nestle, who is quoted in Mark Bittmann's NYT article, has a bit of an obsession with calories and I guess I wasn't too concise there because the calorie obsession bugs me. Sorry.

Busted flush.. well I was being told in 2010 to take my meds and eat the high carb low fat *normal* diet by healthcare professionals in the NHS so I don't think the low fat mantra is in any way busted. When I decided to low carb it did feel like I was launching myself off a cliff ! .

Yes, sorry for being imprecise there - you're quite right: the medical orthodoxy parroted by doctors, nurses and even (sadly) many nutritionists is often completely out of step with current scientific research, not least because doctors receive so little tranng in nutrition and what they do get tends to reflect the prevailing orthodoxies which, when overturned, they take forever to catch-up on (if they ever do).

So it's a busted flush for anyone who is paying attention to the science and applying diligent scepticism, but still holy writ for those whose adherence to the orthodoxy is a vital part of their self-image.

The 'saturated animal fats' meme is going to be the next one to fall, I suspect, but it will take 20 years before the vested interests give that one up.

Edwardia wrote: »

I'm not an Atkins fan, I think he set low carb back many years because it was written off as a dangerous fad diet. .

Neither am I, but you didn't need to be an Atkins disciple to see that his treatment was a disgrace.

Fire_Fox

Edwardia wrote: »

The New York Times published an article by journalist Gary Taubes entitled ' What If It's All A Big Fat Lie ?' which has provoked thousands of people over the years to start questioning the whole low fat mantra.

I am not necessarily on the same page as Marion Nestle but I'd be in the same book and www.foodpolitics.com is interesting.

One calorie is the energy required to heat one gram of water by one degree C. That's pretty meaningless applied to food.

Think of your body as a car for a moment. If you put say 30 litres of petrol (measured amount of calories from same food) in car A and car B, even if the cars were identical, built on the same production line, same age, same weight, same dimensions, same colour, no two cars would burn the fuel in the same way. Nor do we.

Saying a calorie is a calorie is rubbish - 100 calories of fat, protein and carbohydrate are dealt with differently by the body.

So to me the talk about calories i the NYT article is a massive red herring. WHAT we eat is at least as important as, if not more important thanm how MUCH we eat, otherwise I would still be humoungously fat.

Fire Fox pointed out on another thread that there's way less meat content in a ready meal lasagne than if you made it yourself which is a valid point that gets overlooked all the time. :T

I don't possess any kitchen scales so I can't do it but if someone could work out how much in grams the meat content of a cheap lasagne is then we could test the NYT theory

The Findus 'beef' lasagne are available in 360g (£1.60) and 500g (£2) size according to t'internet. So horse content is <60g or 80g per pack. It's just over 100 kcals per 100g so you'd be serving one to two adults per pack depending on the size of pack and size of adult.

Ingredients
"Pasta (20%) (Water, Durum Semolina, Dried Egg White), Water, Beef (16%), Tomato Puree, Tomatoes (10%), Reconstituted Skimmed Milk, Onions (3.5%), Red Leicester Cheese (2.5%), Mushrooms (2%), Modified Starch, Maltodextrin, Whipping Cream (1%), Wheatflour, Starch, Milk Proteins, Salt, Starch, Sugar, Vegetable Oil, Potassium Chloride, Garlic, Herbs, Flavourings (From Soya), Yeast Extract, Flavour Enhancer (Monosodium Glutamate), Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil, Spice Extracts (With Nutmeg), Pepper, Colour (Beta Carotene).
Salt Content 0.7%."

It's not quite as simple as a calorie is a calorie, but the different way each macro is treated by the body is to a greater or lesser extent covered within the TDEE calculation. There is an assumption we are eating foods not single macronutrients, which would be impractical, unpalatable and unhealthy over the long term. Few even stick to a 'true' low carb or 'true' low fat diet (as opposed to reduced carb/ fat) for any length of time.

We are all somewhat different largely because we have different muscle mass and different activity levels but fundamentally healthy people really are not as different as you imagine. It's well known people significantly under or over estimate their activity levels and food intake. Most online calculators add in weight effectively 'guessing' at your lean mass. You wouldn't believe how many people think sedentary is sitting on your backside (= BMR) but the multiplier actually allows for a certain amount of lifestyle physical activity. Most have absolutely no idea what true intense exercise is.

You can measure and calculate TDEE with reasonable accuracy unless someone has a metabolic disorder such as an issue with the thyroid and, to a lesser extent, obesity. Of course we can manipulate or fool our bodies by feeding them high satiety nutrient dense foods or easily digested high calorie foods, I don't think that makes the entire message totally invalid.

I honestly don't see why this issue has to be polarised with ridiculous claims at either end of the spectrum. Low carb is not the holy grail for all any more than vegan wholefood is (tends to be high carb, fairly low fat and low protein) due to personality and lifestyle preferences more than biology.

Public Health messages and official guidelines are just that - are a watered down version of the research and current thinking aimed at the masses. Just because they don't apply perfectly to every last adult doesn't make the entire medical community idiots: that is how the field of Public Health works unless we want even more of 'Big Brother watching' and personally tailored internet and TV advertisements.

There is/ should be amended health messages aimed at different populations and different individuals and the guidelines are fairly flexible once you understand them. Nobody is saying a coeliac must eat a diet rich in gluten grains nor that a vegetarian must eat fish twice a week. Our guidelines DO say 'eat the right amount to be a healthy weight' and 'eat a wide variety of different foods' - that doesn't really fit in with the allegation that we all advocate huge servings of processed wheat three times a day.

I haven't seen a true 'low fat mantra' in lifestyle healthcare for years, that little snippet of propaganda is all too often parroted by the Bacon Brigade many of whom are not up to date with the full UK or US guidelines. See I can do polarising too!

As an aside in one week in January I read different US citizens claim their guidelines were not based on science but on
1. Lobbying and links with the meat industry meaning they are high protein
2. Lobbying and links with the dairy industry even tho 'most' of us are lactose intolerant (maybe in countries the UK/ US guidelines don't apply to)
3. Lobbying and links with the cereal industry meaning they are high in starchy carbs ....
The conspiracy theorists can't all be right whether they identify as vegan, primal or paleo.

Edwardia

Having been on the receiving end of countless lectures from healthcare professionals (none of whom were dieticians, nutritionists or my GP) I can unequivocally state that I have been told more times than I can count that I should be eating plenty of starchy carbs.

Doing that and watching my blood sugar rise within minutes after testing my blood, got me remembering that carbs become glucose and wondering why HCPs were telling me to eat stuff that puts my blood sugar up.

I don't believe in TDEE.. :eek: The reason I don't is because more often than not I don't do 10,000 Steps a day, I don't count calories or watch my portion size either.

I used to think low carb was the bees knees but now I realise that I'm compensating for a malfunctioning pancreas and that for other people averagely, a reduction in processed food would be IMO a feasible goal.

Agribusiness is a big influence in the USA, stuff like maize is cheap because it's subsidised.

I don't buy beef mince, in fact I rarely buy mince and there's no pasta or rice here. OH has organic brown stashed at work tho. If I did I guess around 200g mince per person which allows for leftovers. Thing is that if you eat well at meals you don't tend to eat sweets, crisps etc. I don't have sweets or biscuits at all. Maybe 200g is too much though ??

gailey_2

well when news first broke

it was rumoured to be holland and protein fillers.

The silvercrest said poland.

lifey foods,dalepack and freeza foods havent said where theres come from.

findus 100%horse they thik they from romania at moment a non e u country.

The frauds massive.

so many large compaies duped?

but surly such a low price gave it away unless ws sold at basicaly what they were expecting to pay for beef.

Its very odd.

im sure we not heard last of it.

So far focus been on frozen-can we trust the fresh/chilled?

COOLTRIKERCHICK

I was thinking that gailey about mince/frozen mince

I havent used frozen mince for years, and then i think it was only once or twice as it was carp...

This could even be the tip of the iceburg..

It could have happened small scale into one supplier, and over the years, as it hasnt been checked its just got bigger and bigger...

Could it have all started when there was the bse or foot and mouth in this country, and our beef/meat was banned from going abroad, so then food companies had to source new suppliers and short notice???? ideal time for a dodgy meat supplier to supply the demand and make a few bob;)

Now that Findus are talking about sueing their supplier, I think companies will now start sqeeling to pass the buck.

Suprised te$co and other supermarkets havent mentioned they are going to sue ???

jamesd

It's probably better to sue after a successful criminal prosecution, so the government ends up paying for much of the work.

Bananabrain

COOLTRIKERCHICK wrote: »

Edwina so you believe that things say on food labels?



so di people when they were buying beef burgers, lasagne, spag bal etc;)

You took the words from my fingers Cool. Have read quite a few of Edwardia's replies and methinks she may be a little misled.

I_luv_cats