Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

John_Pierpoint

Now you have got rid of the drafts it is time to get rid of the condensation (well reduce it to the point where it no longer runs down to make puddles).

If you have the time and the skill you can fit sealed units to your existing windows.

Sealed units come in different thickness's, and have to comply with different regulations. Doors and low window sills require toughened glass to be fitted (Google for details).

Sash windows have a problem in that the glazing rebates are shallow and the modern float glass looks "dead", when it is used to replace the "wavy" imperfections in the thin original single glazing and the extra weight means changes to the counterweight system - so the choice is secondary glazing or fancy sealed units made with special "old" glass and tricks like vacuum between the panes.
Follow this link:
http://www.gcu.ac.uk/rich/research/index.html
and you will then get to the sponsors

• English Heritage
• Historic Scotland
• National Trust
• Ecclesiastical Insurance Group
• Munters UK

These people actually know how to look after traditional buildings and they don't tolerate commission driven salesmen.

I would add
http://www.spab.org.uk/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-16-upgrading-windows/
http://www.victoriansociety.org.uk/advice/windows/

This is the best technical study I have found:
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/paul-baker-performance-of-traditional-windows-and-practice-improvements.pdf
(note the increased loss during the cold 2/3rds of the 24 hours.)

However this magnetic type of solution has not been measured, it draft proofs and secondary glazes at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJToZwvxNdY

Unlike Cardew's hard wood frames, I have "Magnet" windows; most of these soft wood windows installed in the 1960's, have been replaced by the replacement window brigade, because unless they are checked annually for paint failures and streaming condensation, they will wet rot very fast.

The origin company, owning the trade mark, went into administration/liquidation/reconstruction more than once.

However I have managed to preserve my casement windows. The company introduced "stepped" sealed units in the 1970s & 80s. The original outside pane stayed in the same place but the seal and the inner pane stood on the transom, mullion or the frame of an opening light.
http://www.interwindows.co.uk/glossary

Stepped units were not a great success, as they blocked the openings with a half inch high strip of painted aluminium foil. Ok it was painted to match, but it became a home to black mould. The winter long condensation eventually caused the breakdown of the seal after 10 - 30 years.

When the £ was riding high against the Euro, having flicked a stone through a single glazed window, I discovered a dirt cheap source of sealed units, using glass imported from France.
The two original sealed units now over 10 years old are still OK and so 5 years ago I resolved to fit sealed units to all my windows; all 13 of them. The units cost about £20.00 plus VAT per sq mt, using the then new infra red reflecting "Guardian" glass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Industries
I was able to do the whole house for less than £1,000 inclusive of all materials but not of my time [the opening lights need to have a deeper glazing rebate cut to accommodate the 4 - 6 - 4 ( = 14) mm thickness of the sealed units and even grafting, it took typically a day per window to fit the units. standing on their mounting blocks (call it 3 weeks work to allow for measuring etc. - always check the diagonals)]

So far I have had one failure out of the 50 odd sealed units; it cracked, because of insufficient space allowed for seasonal movement in the frame.

A rival producer could have saved me £200 if I had used the glass from a Japanese controlled company called Pilkington, but that product makes white curtains look nicotine stained.

Stand by for a salesman to tell us I am not FENSA registered. His offer to do the job for £10,000 ++, all be it with a 4 - 18 - 4 chunky solution, to save an extra 25 percent, over what I have already saved in annual heating costs.

Cardew

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

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When the £ was riding high against the Euro, having flicked a stone through a single glazed window, I discovered a dirt cheap source of sealed units, using glass imported from France.
The two original sealed units now over 10 years old are still OK and so 5 years ago I resolved to fit sealed units to all my windows; all 13 of them. The units cost about £0.20 plus VAT per sq mt using the then new infra red reflecting "Guardian" glass. I was able to do the whole house for less than £1,000 inclusive of all materials but not of my time

.

John,

Surely that is a typo!

Or for £1,000 you have 5,000 sq metres of glass - a bit bigger than a football field!!

John_Pierpoint

You are absolutely correct, I have multiplied by 100 please divide your football pitch by 100.

I'll see if I can find the actual invoice in the shed in the daylight, to confirm actual sizes and rate; mind you the firm involved "merged" with a bigger rival following the financial melt down, so the current price will be more formalised and probably half as much again.

Jan08

In answer to Viknarch's question about solid wall insulation, I have been trying to get to the bottom of this for the last couple of days as I was getting negative answers from some companies. I ended up speaking to the Energy Savings Trust. I explained that I wasn't on benefits or living in an area that qualified for the carbon savings community obligation and he told me that I should still qualify for a grant under the carbon saving obligation. However, the big 6 energy suppliers who have signed up to the ECO have not released any funds yet under this criteria even when an assessment provides the evidence that solid wall insulation would reduce heating costs.
So just to clarify, even if you are entitled to a grant, the energy suppliers aren't providing any funding as yet. I was told that this might change sometime in the future.

mercexe

Does anyone know where I can find the eligibility requirements for the green deal?

We currently live in a run down old property that we are slowly renovating. It has no central heating (we are using electric heaters) and no boiler.

I booked a green deal assessor to come out and he was useless and said he couldn't do anything until the property was "fully renovated". Didn't even explain what he meant by that.

When I booked the assessment I was merely told that we had to be living in the property - they never mentioned it couldn't be undergoing renovations.

Any help greatly appreciated!

John_Pierpoint

Did you need and have you got building regulations approval for what you are doing?

There is an overlap, in that the building regulations & planning system can force you to do some of this type of work, whether you want to or can afford to, or not.
Examples:
Want to stick on a conservatory using the existing French doors for access?.
Want to re render or tile hang the outside walls?
Intend to replace the windows?
Want to replace the leaking roof?

Understandably you are expected to get the funding from your mortgage company, and with the Green Deal money costing 7% plus, it might well be as cheap to have it added to the mortgage (eg Nationwide BS).

The interesting situation occurs with landlords, where the landlord would get the benefit of an improved property and the tenants would pay the increased electricity bill.

elantan

Have just spent a night at a friends house, they have got the green deal done with pv panels, they were telling me their system is a 3kw that cost £12k and that they are being charged 20% apr for the system, they will recieve a dividend 4 times a year for just over £100 which is aimed at helping pay for the cost of the system, when I heard these details I was quite shocked but maybe I am not understanding something about the green deal, can anyone shed some light as it whether this is a good deal or as I suspect a really bad deal, I can't quite decide if the green deal is for us tbh, after talking to friends this evening I am think no but I could be totally wrong

John_Pierpoint

I'm sure that if I was their neighbour, I could have done a deal with them at less than 20%.
Perhaps they have a really strange roof with several shading issues; but even I, a little over a year ago, bought a 3.6 kWp system, against the clock, so not in a good negotiating position, for a little over £10k.
What is it that makes some people so secretive about money, that they fail to ask for advice and pay way over the odds?

Ask the people on this thread what they think should be the economics of panel installation now - especially the one with a "moniker" starting Z.......

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/59448301#Comment_59448301

Johnandabby

elantan wrote: »

Have just spent a night at a friends house, they have got the green deal done with pv panels, they were telling me their system is a 3kw that cost £12k and that they are being charged 20% apr for the system, they will recieve a dividend 4 times a year for just over £100 which is aimed at helping pay for the cost of the system, when I heard these details I was quite shocked but maybe I am not understanding something about the green deal, can anyone shed some light as it whether this is a good deal or as I suspect a really bad deal, I can't quite decide if the green deal is for us tbh, after talking to friends this evening I am think no but I could be totally wrong

But that wouldn't meet the 'golden rule' so won't only part of this be actually Green Deal financed, if any at all?

The dividend wouldn't even cover the annual interest, assuming a loan of the full £12k. Wouldn't get close to paying back even in 25 yrs, which is probably the life of the system.

20% APR is madness - they might as well burn money to keep themselves warm instead!!

Ecodave

Elentan,

I doubt that your neighbours have used Green Deal finance to install their solar panels. For a start, a solar installation without the involvement of the Green Deal process can take a coupe of months to organise, Green Deal only launched at the end of Jan. Problems with software meant that no plans were written anywhere in the country for the first month. When were their panels installed? All this is before I point out that GD finance would only cover a fraction of the install cost of solar pv, so the bulk would have been financed in a traditional format.

If you want to consider GD as a vehicle for improving the energy efficiency of your home then that's great, but please ensure you understand how it works before you pay for an assessment.