Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Johnandabby

lstar337 wrote: »

they do if the current windows are falling out of their frames.

I haven't seen a single person here say that they are trying to use GD to have perfectly good single glazed windows exchanged for double glazing. I have however, seen people on here who have very poor condition single glazing, get overlooked due to simplistic modeling by GD software.

Don't try and say 'double glazing doesn't help' ignoring the condition of the current glazing. In a lot of cases it would help, just not by the fact that it is 2 sheets of glass instead of one. This is the same mistake the GDA are making, and why our ageing house stock will never get any better.

You're missing the point - there is no tick box within the Green Deal assessment that says that the current windows are falling out of their frames. Poorly maintained windows don't get assessed, only whether they are single or double glazed. If windows are falling out of their frames you get them fixed for much cheaper than replacing them entirely. The fact that the Green Deal doesn't include loans for maintenance is a completely separate discussion.

And I repeat - double glazing does not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce energy bills. There is no payback on new windows - you will spend more money on them then you will get back from energy savings. I didn't say that double glazing doesn't help, only that the windows cost more than they save.

Value for money is completely different from comfort issues.

And there have been lots of posts here from people who are surprised that the GDA doesn't cover replacement of existing double glazing, which just shows how effective the false advertising of double glazing companies have been in convincing people of the benefits of constantly changing windows...

Viknarch

Well having read through half this thread this morning I called Aran Services to book an assessment (I've been told there is no charge for this), having read through the rest of this thread tonight I'm not sure we'll get what we need from it. We particularly need solid wall insulation so I assume we'd need to go down the ECO route? We don't qualify for any benefits so I was hoping we might get some sort of grant to help out with this (as there's no way we could afford to get this done any other way). Although, I've just had a quick look at the department for the environment and climate change site and it seems to suggest that you can only get a grant if you qualify for some kind of benefit whereas MSE Mythbuster says that ANYONE with solid walls could get help?!? Has anyone else tried the ECO route yet and have anything to say about it? Other than that we'll just await the assessor to see what they say then post further

Richie-from-the-Boro

9 weeks in, even the 'cash back' carrot of up to £1000 depending on the measures installed has failed. DECC revealed just over 2000 dwellings have had a green deal assessment most of these assessments have been government-fundedd. Although they have a 'real time' statistical analysis running live they did not reveal how many of these assessed households have converted into green deal plans.

Instead of cashback and carrots the GOV could reduce the council tax on the dwelling pro-rata with the loan, then perhaps we might get a v3.0 workable version of the GD.

lstar337

Johnandabby wrote: »

You're missing the point - there is no tick box within the Green Deal assessment that says that the current windows are falling out of their frames. Poorly maintained windows don't get assessed, only whether they are single or double glazed. If windows are falling out of their frames you get them fixed for much cheaper than replacing them entirely. The fact that the Green Deal doesn't include loans for maintenance is a completely separate discussion.

And I repeat - double glazing does not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce energy bills. There is no payback on new windows - you will spend more money on them then you will get back from energy savings. I didn't say that double glazing doesn't help, only that the windows cost more than they save.

Value for money is completely different from comfort issues.

And there have been lots of posts here from people who are surprised that the GDA doesn't cover replacement of existing double glazing, which just shows how effective the false advertising of double glazing companies have been in convincing people of the benefits of constantly changing windows...

Without disputing what you say, double glazing has been one of the main upgrades used to advertise the green deal.

Since it will never pay, why are they doing it at all?

monstereyebrows

Deleted_User wrote: »

I live in a solid walled property, built in 1902 with 100mm of loft insulation. I had gas installed to the property last year and paid to have central heating, including a new combi boiler.

A green deal assessor come to my home this morning and told me that it was not worth him carrying out the assessment as I had a new boiler installed and that any measures he suggested including installing solid wall insulation would not be covered by the green deal as savings would not outweigh the installation costs.

He also told me that as I have over 50mm of loft insulation, I would not be eligible for a top up.

I asked about the ECO and he told me that was means tested even for solid wall insulation (although I'm sure I read that it wasn't). I phoned another assessor, who's number I got from a friend and he told me the same thing (although he also told me that he ad been trained by the same company as the first assessor). The assessor who came to my property actually said "this green deal scheme is rubbish really". Can anyone tell me if the information I was given is correct, as I'd like to try and get funding for solid wall insulation. Thank.

Moneysaver here goes Just to confirm to all I am not a SALESMAN I said I would not post but have decided to answer your question.

Everyone with a solid wall property is eligable for ECO funding (even if you dont receive benifits)

How it works is the Green Deal Assessor carries out an assessment on your property called an EPC when completed a calculation is done to find out what carbon saving you make per year lets say 1 tonne that is times by the lifetime of the wall insulation (36 years) therefore the lifetime carbon saving for EWI would be 36 tonnes this is then x by the value of carbon (what a utility pays for carbon) say £100 per tonne.

So 36 x £100= £3600. Therefore ECO funding will give you a contribution of £3600 to have your external wall insulation. So lets say it cost £7000 there is a short fall of £3400 you can either pay the £3400 from your back pocket or you can fund it by taking out a Green Loan and pay back £3400 plus interest for a period upto the lifetime of EWI (36 years or could be less) In addition if you took it now you would also get £650 cashback as an early adoptor of the Scheme reducing loan to £2750.

Now you still have to meet the golden rule ie your repayments must be be equal or less than the saving you are making in energy. Lets say the estimate energy saving for EWI was £250 per year therefore to meet the golden rule (payments equal or less than saving) you could have a loan from one Green Deal Provider say 20 yrs at £21 per month added to your elecric bill another Green Deal provider may give 30yrs at £16 per month in the second example you would pay 12 x £16 = £198 year repayment therefore you would save at least £52 in first year but remember as fuel costs rise your saving would be greater say in 5 years you may save £100 per year (rising from £52 due to energy cost rise) the Green Deal loan would stay at £198 per year. But also remember its not just about saving its about making your home comfortable!

Just to add if your property was electric heating your carbon saving would be higher and in some cases the value of your lifetime carbon may be more than the cost of EWI you then would get it free (and no requirement for you to benifits to be free).

This ECO funding is available to everyone so long as you can find a Green Deal Provider that has been given funding on this scheme.

Finally you said that Green Deal Advisors have told you cannot have this funding or its not worth it. This is not the case they do not understand ECO funding. I am working with 8 Green Deal Advisors and they dont understand it I am trying to educate them.

Sorry its complicated but hope it makes sense.

Johnandabby

lstar337 wrote: »

Without disputing what you say, double glazing has been one of the main upgrades used to advertise the green deal.

Since it will never pay, why are they doing it at all?

Because it is another ill thought through govt policy, and because the public generally associate energy efficiency with double glazing because of the fantastic marketing work done by double glazing companies.

And from a cynical view point they make money from doing the assessments, so why tell you up front that you can't have what you want

Richie-from-the-Boro

Using monstereyebrows #211 own figures of "£3400 plus interest for a period up to the lifetime of EWI [36 years or could be less]"

This loan, repaid through energy bills and permanently attached to the property so if ever sold, the debt stays with it. I for one am not sure anyone, even one anyone, would want to take on a property with someone else's 100%+ debt hanging over it. Future saleability, early repayment penalties, pre-loaded energy costs of between 6.9% and 10.9%, and and an asset unsaleable for 30 years is a good idea. Taking out a personal loan and repaying it as quickly as possible is a much better idea.

- borrow £3400.00
- pay back £8573.87
- daily interest would continue to accrue at 0.69 per day
- that's more than a 100% interest accrued over the 13149 day loan
- actual simple interest on £3400.00 would be £8573.87
- principal + interest would be £11973.87
- the home is likely to be unsellable and shackled till 31/01/2049

Cardew

Johnandabby wrote: »

Because it is another ill thought through govt policy, and because the public generally associate energy efficiency with double glazing because of the fantastic marketing work done by double glazing companies.

And from a cynical view point they make money from doing the assessments, so why tell you up front that you can't have what you want

Couldn't agree more! The savings from double glazing are much smaller than the salesman would have us believe.
http://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.uk/index.php/heat-loss-and-insulation/double-glazing

However there is another aspect of double glazing that needs consideration, when the seals go and they are 'blown'.

I had my house built 25 years ago and the(then) very best specification double glazed windows were fitted. Anyway a few have recently needed replacement - the hardwood frames are in perfect condition - and I suspect that over the next few years the rest will need replacing at the cost of many hundreds of pounds.

It seems I have been lucky to have them last so long, a couple of my friends have had theirs blown in 10 years or so.

John_Pierpoint

The first step in energy saving is to remove draughts. This was recommended for all homes in 1972, when the first oil shock crashed the "you have never had it so good" UK economy.
It is amazing how many homes still have draughts - some people actually enjoy them, but they are getting increasingly expensive.
Even with difficult 100 year old sash (sliding) windows draughts can be largely removed and it does not cost a Green Deal loan to do so.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/epdm-rubber-e-strip-4mm-x-20m-white/73216

U-tube has videos showing how to do all these DIY tasks

NaughtySpot

I have finally(!) had my Green Deal assessment back, 8 weeks after having it done. We live in the typical property that Martin Lewis was talking about, and all we have had the "green tick" for having done on the GD is draught (draft?!?) proofing. I'm not sure what can be done for these as I have the cling film sheets over all single paned windows, and the external doors are uPVC. I am disappointed but more surprised TBH. Our boiler (gas) is at least 20 years old and we have been continuously been told how inefficient it is, maybe condensing boilers and double glazing aren't all they're cracked up to be and we shouldn't be replacing them as readily thinking it's saving us money?

Anyway; apparently the funding is still not in place so nothing can happen yet.

I think if you've no cavity wall and loft insulation then it's probably worth looking in to, but for other things it's not worth the assessment fee.