Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Cardew

Simone_Nelson wrote: »

We are minded to do away with five storage heaters - Dimplex XL5N (cannot find out their age - any help on this would be useful) and substitute with a 3 kW Cadiz Oil Free Radiator/Convector in our lounge - if this solves the problem we may buy smaller Cadiz Heaters for elsewhere.

Had a look at an advert for Cadiz oil free radiators. See:

http://www.dimplex.co.uk/products/domestic_heating/portable_heating/oil_free_radiators/cadiz_eco/index.htm

IMO it is a disgraceful advert - and quite unlike anything I have seen from Dimplex before.

It states:

30% energy savings heating a room*

Now surely that is intended to convey to the non-technical layman that the heaters are energy saving when compared to other heaters?

Given that all electrical heaters are 100% efficient that cannot possible be true. However the clue is the *

*based on heating a room - speed of warm up from 10C to 22C - range average.

So what this means is that a room will up heat quicker than an oil filled radiator. The reason for this is that an oil filled radiator will take a lot of heat getting the oil itself up to temperature. However they neglect to point out that the oil filled radiator will have a residual heat when the power is switched off as the oil will take longer to cool down than the Cadiz.

The bottom line is that any oil filled radiator(or indeed any heater) will produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat, for the same running cost, as the Cadiz.

By their definition of '30% savings heating a room' (i.e. speed of warm up from 10C to 22 C) it would be far more efficient to buy a £10 3kW fan heater.

NOTE.
I am not criticizing the Cadiz heater range, they are not anything like the rip off heaters filled with clay etc costing many £hundreds - indeed £thousands. They appear to be reasonably priced like most Dimplex products.

However it is disappointing that Dimplex stoop to this kind of 'smoke and mirrors' advert that is designed to imply they give out more heat than other radiators.

John_Pierpoint

Simone_Nelson wrote: »

Currently we use 77% of our energy on the Economy 7 tariff - which of course gives us little flexibility or control. We are minded to do away with five storage heaters - Dimplex XL5N (cannot find out their age - any help on this would be useful)
So we have spent £115 to learn little and so far find no provider to help us further!!!

I think you will discover they could be 20 years old BUT as cardew explains, there has been very little change in night storage technology and a kWh is a kWh, there is no magic technology that can change that. The basic rule is that £10 spent on better insulation and draught proofing is more effective than £100 spent on fancy new heating equipment [Last autumn loft and cavity insulation was in fact free]
The only change in night storage heating is (I think) a feed that tells the heating the outside temperature to prevent you over heating the house at this time of the year.

You could start here and then phone Dimplex with the model & serial number (on the right-hand side of the heater?) and ask (try asking for "spares" department .and hope you get someone sympathetic)

http://www.dimplex.co.uk/products/domestic_heating/installed_heating/storage_heaters/xl_xls_slimline_storage_heater/technical_specification.htm

For us to comment further you need to understand the construction of your home and explain on it on here. Presumably the obvious energy saving measures are already installed?

Richie-from-the-Boro

Simone Nelson, ~ snip ~

"Currently we use 77% of our energy on the Economy 7 tariff - Because of the high level of overnight charging overall our tariff works out to be less than 9p per unit - quite cheap in fact"

Oil, clay, or Marmite filled day 'core' rate panel heater or grannies two bar fire why would you want to swap 77% of your annual water and space heating costs @ 9p per unit for 100% of your annual costs for at least 20p per unit ? Achieving a 77% night / 23% day is a notable and exceptionally good ratio.

Asking for a way to double your annual energy bill outgoings seems to sit between imprudence and ineptitude. A 77% night rate use is a masterpiece in the 'how to use E7 standard' and suggests (1) you are already well insulated and (2) more insulation can never hurt, but ..............

- there comes a point of diminishing returns
- it will perform no worse than 90% of the brand new available replacements
- it, the 5N - XL series was however a small 8 bricker, changing this for a [24N] bigger 16 bricker, even one as old would double its performance

NOTE01 : The 5N didn't feature as part of their range for long, it was quickly upped to the 6N within a year or so of its initial release.

NOTE:02 Wait 8 weeks and you will pick up second hand 'collect only' 3.4kW heaters from ebay for £20 each instead of the £450 new retail price.

Ecodave

Simone_Nelson wrote: »

We got the assessment and we were hoping for great improvement on our existing Economy 7 deal with Eon - we do not know how old the 5 Storage Heaters are in the house we moved into in July 2011. Having paid £115 our Assessor spent a very long time filling in his forms - he told us he would transfer this to the official computer software when he got home. Seemed a shame he did not have it on a Laptop to start with!

After week of not hearing anything we phoned up and got the assessment immediately by email. Sadly it seemed to imply that we were already under the average spend for a house of our size with little room for improvement other than insulating our floor for a possible £29 annual saving. Or installing gas central heating at £4,000/£7,000 - we had already said that at our age we were not prepared for the disruption never mind the cost.

Not daunted we decided to contact the 'local' providers. Well there were none really local - we are in Newcastle - the nearest in Leeds was not interested if they had not done the assessment. Doncaster a message on the phone to say they were unable to handle our call - so far they have not called back.

Currently we use 77% of our energy on the Economy 7 tariff - which of course gives us little flexibility or control. We are minded to do away with five storage heaters - Dimplex XL5N (cannot find out their age - any help on this would be useful) and substitute with a 3 kW Cadiz Oil Free Radiator/Convector in our lounge - if this solves the problem we may buy smaller Cadiz Heaters for elsewhere. BUT we have to make the leap to do away with the Economy 7 tariff in order to get a cheaper daytime rate. Because of the high level of overnight charging overall our tariff works out to be less than 9p per unit - quite cheap in fact!

I doubt we would get the £150 per storage heater cash back if we were not replacing like with like?

So we have spent £115 to learn little and so far find no provider to help us further!!!

There are a few things that occur to me regarding your post that suggest that you, like many others, have had completely unrealistic expectations of the Green Deal scheme.

The first sentence of your post states that you were "hoping for great improvement on our Economy 7 deal". I hope that you now realise that the Green Deal has no effect whatsoever on the tariff you have with your energy company.

Throughout your post you make no mention of loft or wall insulation, so I presume that these have already been brought up to a good standard. These measures are low cost compared to the savings they deliver and will therefore be key measures in the vast majority of Green Deals. Without them, the finance for other measures, which deliver lower savings, will fail the test known as the Golden Rule. This is where the estimate of the savings from the package of measures has to be higher than the payments for the installation of the measures. In your case, you are considering updating your storage heaters, which in itself may be a reasonable idea (see other comments regarding this though) but the vast majority of the cost of this will fall outside of any Green Deal plan, because of the Golden Rule.

With regards the cashback, you ponder whether or not you would get the £150 per heater. I think you will find that the cashback is £150 in total, which would be knocked off the amount to be financed. Not sure which Providers you found that were local? On the GreenDealOrb website there are 41 Providers listed under the "England" territory search facility. No Provider is allowed to turn away a GDAR whether they have produced it or not, so you should make a complaint about that.

It's a shame that you left it until after you paid for your assessment to post here, I think most people would have been able to say that this isn't the scheme for you.

Johnandabby

The latest I heard is that the Govt is looking into reducing the interest rate from 7% down to 3% as there has been hardly any take-up - hopefully there won't be too many people who sign up before they change it, but judging from online feedback I don't think there will be!

John_Pierpoint

The Government has got no money.
The Green deal relies on commercial offerings; these range from 7% to something in the 20 - 30% range.
As some wag said "At that price we might as well go to Wonga."

augustbabeuk

Greendeal what a joke and waste of time we have just recieved our report which we got done by British gas . We phoned british gas to get some quotes For boiler etc and we were told we needed to set the finance up so we said that on the greendeal gov site it states that they are doing the finance as we would never have went to them for the assessor ,well they are not doing the finance they told us to look elsewhere .We paid a hundred pound for nothing we have informed the greendeal ombudsman and they have said we have to wait 8 weeks to put our complaint through what a waste of time . Also on the greendeal gov site it states if you have a prepayment meter you can still get greendeal but British gas are saying you cant you have to have a credit meter in British gas seem to be making their own rules as they go along. We have phoned several greendeal suppliers today that are on the greendeal gov site and none of them are doing the finance so we are stuck with a report which we paid £100 for nothing what a waste of time & money

augustbabeuk

Im back again because Im fuming about this Greendeal .Our windows are about 20yrs old they are double glazed but are falling apart we sit on sofa and the curtains move with the draught but because they are classed as double glazed we cant get replacements also we cant have them recealed either . Also a couple of years ago we had British gas insurance on our boiler and when it came to the service they said our boiler was so old it was obstalite as they could not get parts for it anymore but they would not supply us with a new boiler under the insurance scheme. Our boiler is still working ,as we know our boiler is over 20yrs old we were hoping to get a new boiler but when the assessor came from british gas he said our boiler is still running at 70%efficient what a load of rubbish how can it be too old to repair by british gas but it they are now saying it is 70% efficient they need to make their mind up they make rules up as they go along .Also why did the government set greendeal up if no one does the finance they are causing people to pay £100 for a report which is no good and allowing these companies to make rules up as they go along someone needs to step in and sort this as the greendeal ombudsman does not seem to want to know either so please dont waste your money its not worth it

John_Pierpoint

george-smith wrote: »

I have to say I am VERY interested in the Green deal but I am still unsure as to whether or not it should be trusted.
I have an old 1850 cottage, with thick stone walls. I have double glazing, loft insulation (8") and central heating with a V-E-R-Y old Triang oil boiler, which I am told is only about 40% efficient so I would be looking to upgrade that under the green deal to a newer one of about 95% efficiency.


Any thoughts and advice would be very much appreciated!

Have you got that trade name for the boiler right?
Triang made toys.
Triangle is a USA boiler manufacturer.
Trianco made boilers.
Assuming this is the boiler manufacturer, what sort of oil is burning in what sort of boiler.
Is it a round drum with a spinner in the middle? Or something with a blower on the front?
A picture would be useful, if you can post one of your own or find something similar on Google to link to.

You are most unlikely to get 95% efficiency in real life.

Me_fishy_u_chippie

Hello Threaders,

I have been busy for a few days but felt that I wanted to make further contributions to what is fast becoming a road kill of a government policy. I subscribe to other online news and industry related websites and, in this instance, I chanced upon this response to a triumphant DECC announcement of a fantastic initial response to GD takeup in BusinessGreen.

Please, do go and check out the article for provenance.

It is thought provoking. What are your thoughts?

"Roger Parker • DECC - Green Deal's 1st month.
Why is abject failure dressed up as success? To comply with the 80% reduction in CO2emission by 2050 from a 1990 baseline, the UK needs to be retrofitting a dwelling a minute, yes, a dwelling a minute to reach this target. That equates to c.700,000 dwelling p.yr, which is c.56,000 p mth, every month, year on year. This is the order-of-magnitude facing this country, the challenge ahead.
The convertion rate of GreenDeal Advice Reports into Plans and on into Installation is estimated at around 1 in 5, 20%. Therefore, 1803 GreenDeal Assessments may convert into 360 retrofits.
The figures speak for themselves – 56,000 p mth retrofits needed, 360 may be done. No wonder the boiler makers have seen no uplift in sales.
Why say more – the government's flagship Green Deal is an abject failure".


Responses on a waterproof postcard please.


xx