Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

John_Pierpoint

Unfortunately as you theoretically have a heated shop downstairs and a heated flat upstairs only the face of the building with the windows in it are letting out the heat. What sort of heat retention is offered by the stairs and your front door?
Landlords are going to be forced to improve all properties with an F & G ratings before 2018 and it will be ratcheted up after that.
What sort of lighting do you have, that will be under pressure for up grading in 2016.

You could do the windows with the following:
Draught strip the windows with brush strip and some sort of flap horizontally along the "centre meeting rail".
This looks like an expensive web site, but it explains quite well.
http://www.sashwindows.info/draught-proofing.htm
Screwfix sells reasonably cheap brush strip.
Then you can double glaze and seal the reduced draughts to zero with something like this:
http://www.magneglaze.co.uk/index.php

If you price-up everything the landlord might see sense and come to some sort of deal with you..

Similarly draught stripping the front door is a morning's work for a DIY person using a rubber strip, something like this and perhaps a brush strip at the bottom of the door.

http://www.diy.com/nav/build/insulation/draught-excluders/seals/-brand-Stormguard?noCookies=false

lstar337

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Unfortunately as you theoretically have a heated shop downstairs and a heated flat upstairs only the face of the building with the windows in it are letting out the heat.

All of the front face, plus 3 walls out the back. It is hard to describe, but the front of the building is a long terrace as it is part of the towns high street. The back of the building is an extension that goes down to ground level.

I hope I can add an image.


I don't draw building plans for a living so some of the symbols and such are out, but this plan is accurate for sizes.

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

What sort of heat retention is offered by the stairs and your front door?

Virtually none. The front door is wooden and used to leak like a sieve. I have added foam stripping to stop draughts, but the area surrounding the door is just thin fibreboard which lets the cold through and goes mouldy every few weeks. There is no heating downstairs at all and the large window also lets heat pour out. the upstairs landing and downstairs area (one of the biggest areas by square footage) is only heated by the smallest storage heater we have (1.7kW model) which is set as high as it will go. We have virtualy abandoned this part of the flat as it is so cold, we only use it for access to the bathroom.

Another thing our Green Deal advisor told us was that we could get the front door replaced for UPVC, when we have the windows done. This isn't mention on any report.

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Landlords are going to be forced to improve all properties with an F & G ratings before 2018

Not much use for us now that the EPC says it is grade D.

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

What sort of lighting do you have, that will be under pressure for up grading in 2016.

They are all energy saving. Most fittings are 9W CFL, Bedrooms are 3W LED, Kitchen and reception room are 58W strip lights which we are not allowed to change.

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

You could do the windows with the following:
Draught strip the windows with brush strip and some sort of flap horizontally along the "centre meeting rail".
This looks like an expensive web site, but it explains quite well.
http://www.sashwindows.info/draught-proofing.htm
Screwfix sells reasonably cheap brush strip.
Then you can double glaze and seal the reduced draughts to zero with something like this:
http://www.magneglaze.co.uk/index.php

If you price-up everything the landlord might see sense and come to some sort of deal with you...

We really don't have the funds or incentive to do this kind of work to somebody else rental property, and really it is a band-aid to the problem. The single pane glas is still going to let the heat out. Plus, some of the frames are in such poor condition that removing the paintmight make them crumble away.

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Similarly draught stripping the front door is a morning's work for a DIY person using a rubber strip, something like this and perhaps a brush strip at the bottom of the door.

http://www.diy.com/nav/build/insulation/draught-excluders/seals/-brand-Stormguard?noCookies=false

Already done this, hasn't made much difference.

Ken68

All of my windows lstar have insulation pads, external or internal some of them both.
The cheapest version is two pieces of cardboard to size of window.
In between is either 50mm or 100mm rockwool and the outer edge is stiffened with polystyrene and the centre with thin light crossed wood. Taped at the edges. To help it hold together thread string through and hold with matchsticks, Glue to set. Then place into the window reveal.
Almost free and this remote thermometer reads a better U value that the surrounding walls.
Not for the image conscious but can be decorated and onc e curtains are drawn no problem. Light and easy to store. A Blue Peter job. (who he..Ed)

lstar337

Ken68 wrote: »

All of my windows lstar have insulation pads, external or internal some of them both.
The cheapest version is two pieces of cardboard to size of window.
In between is either 50mm or 100mm rockwool and the outer edge is stiffened with polystyrene and the centre with thin light crossed wood. Taped at the edges. To help it hold together thread string through and hold with matchsticks, Glue to set. Then place into the window reveal.
Almost free and this remote thermometer reads a better U value that the surrounding walls.
Not for the image conscious but can be decorated and onc e curtains are drawn no problem. Light and easy to store. A Blue Peter job. (who he..Ed)

Interesting idea. We did cover a few of the windows downstairs with two layers of large bubble wrap at one point, and also the bathroom windows before they were upgraded to double glazing. This did cut some of the heat loss, but it looked horrible and eventually condensation seeped through the layers until most of the benefit was gone.

flower_pot_2

Hi, i have just come off the phone, after searching for weeks for an assesor in my area, to find that because i have already got wall/ loft insulation, and a new boiler(paid out of my own pocket), that i would not be able to claim the full amount needed for double glazing. Why? because they say that going from single glazed windows ( mine are the old crital and compleatly out of shape and very drafty!!) to double glazed windows would only save you £60 per year, thus you would only get part grant and with paying for the assessment fee and funds ontop for the short fall from the goverment it wouldn't be worth it. Both my husband and i work, we don't get any help with anything, and simply can't afford double glazed windows - i thought the 'Green deal' was meant to help people like us!!!

lstar337

flower_pot wrote: »

Hi, i have just come off the phone, after searching for weeks for an assesor in my area, to find that because i have already got wall/ loft insulation, and a new boiler(paid out of my own pocket), that i would not be able to claim the full amount needed for double glazing. Why? because they say that going from single glazed windows ( mine are the old crital and compleatly out of shape and very drafty!!) to double glazed windows would only save you £60 per year, thus you would only get part grant and with paying for the assessment fee and funds ontop for the short fall from the goverment it wouldn't be worth it. Both my husband and i work, we don't get any help with anything, and simply can't afford double glazed windows - i thought the 'Green deal' was meant to help people like us!!!

You are finding the same as me, only our assessment is done and was free.

Still, the whole document looks like it has been fiddled to make it look like double glazing doesn't pay. If that really is the case, then why was there such a push for them in the past!?

Like me, your windows are in bad condition, but the assessment doesn't take that into account. They use a very simplistic value for single glazed windows which obviously does not take into account poor windows like ours.

This put simply, means that the figures they quote for savings are much lower than they would be for you or I in reality.

Cardew

lstar337 wrote: »

Still, the whole document looks like it has been fiddled to make it look like double glazing doesn't pay. If that really is the case, then why was there such a push for them in the past!?

'Push' is an appropriate term!

Double Glazing salesmen did the pushing to make commission.

The savings from double glazing are indeed low. Also after x years they 'blow' and the glass units need replacing.

lstar337

Cardew wrote: »

'Push' is an appropriate term!

Double Glazing salesmen did the pushing to make commission.

The savings from double glazing are indeed low. Also after x years they 'blow' and the glass units need replacing.

It wasn't all salesmen pushing though, I remember all the council housing stock being compulsory upgraded. Somebody must have thought it was worthwhile.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Thinsualte type shades / blinds are a better bet where you can't change the windows / frames. One heck of a price though and have to be bespoke .. .. as in the gaps are as important as the shade.

A set of bespoke old fashioned wooden shutters with a thermal lining barrier [50%] will do almost as much as double glazing at 50%. NOTE - solid not plantation shutters which I gave only as a sizing reference.

The gaps are as important as the shades / blinds / shutters, if you are not able to build to a near zero gap, keep yer money in yer pocket. If you have a small window in the loo or wherever building a test shade / blind / shutter might be a worthwhile other avenue to explore. You can get them made, the Americans use them in their millions but buying efficient ready made with the right quality insulator is almost the same price a double glazing.

.......... something to ponder for those who can not for whatever reason have double glazing ...............

Heat Loss Reduction Values are ish !

- double-glazing 55%
- secondary glazing + insulated shutters 77%
- secondary glazing + heavy curtains 66%
- stand alone insulated shutters 60%
- honeycomb blinds 36%
- modern insulated roller blinds 22%

John_Pierpoint

lstar337 wrote: »

All of the front face, plus 3 walls out the back. It is hard to describe, but the front of the building is a long terrace as it is part of the towns high street. The back of the building is an extension that goes down to ground level.

I hope I can add an image.


I don't draw building plans for a living so some of the symbols and such are out, but this plan is accurate for sizes.

Virtually none. The front door is wooden and used to leak like a sieve. I have added foam stripping to stop draughts, but the area surrounding the door is just thin fibreboard which lets the cold through and goes mouldy every few weeks. There is no heating downstairs at all and the large window also lets heat pour out. the upstairs landing and downstairs area (one of the biggest areas by square footage) is only heated by the smallest storage heater we have (1.7kW model) which is set as high as it will go. We have virtualy abandoned this part of the flat as it is so cold, we only use it for access to the bathroom.

Another thing our Green Deal advisor told us was that we could get the front door replaced for UPVC, when we have the windows done. This isn't mention on any report.

Not much use for us now that the EPC says it is grade D.

They are all energy saving. Most fittings are 9W CFL, Bedrooms are 3W LED, Kitchen and reception room are 58W strip lights which we are not allowed to change.

We really don't have the funds or incentive to do this kind of work to somebody else rental property, and really it is a band-aid to the problem. The single pane glass is still going to let the heat out. Plus, some of the frames are in such poor condition that removing the paintmight make them crumble away.

Already done this, hasn't made much difference.

Smart posting, I am impressed.

What sort of hot water system do you have?

I am not sure it is legal to have a kitchen with no natural light and no extractor fan ventilation - major source of black mould condensation - though it is small enough not to count as a habitable room. A dehumidifier run at night on E7 electricity might help.

Presumably there is not much chance of getting a tenant for the ground floor? At least you have some insulation from the carpet.

Looks like you already have fluorescent lights, so not much more of a saving to be made by converting to LEDs. [A lot of people still have a mass of high heat halogen filament spot lights embedded in their ceilings - so fashionable in the 80s & 90s.]

By far your biggest problem is excessive air changes, mainly through your traditional sash windows. My link to a source of DIY stick on magnetic strip panels of acrylic (aka "Perspex"), creates an effect the same as the door of your fridge, or possibly your shower enclosure.
It would completely stop the draughts, as well as halving the loss of heat through the single sheets of glass,
However if the sash windows are really lose and rattling, so much cold air is getting past them that condensation can occur on the inside of the acrylic sheet.:D

You can also "velcro" a blind or curtian lining to the window frame, pr male up a shutter to cover the window, but that is not much good during daylight.

Would I be right in thinking you have no open chimneys ?

It is pretty obvious that your Green Deal report is little more than an attempt to sell "nice" PVS replacement windows and doors, as it does not point out that the simple things we were all advised to do in the 1970s have not been highlighted. It just tells you to pay for them yourself.
I am not impressed by the Energy Performance Certificate either, what did that suggest?

Were you provided with the EPC to help you make the decision to rent this ice bucket of a flat?

[Who is guaranteeing your deposit;)].

As manager of a BTL I used this magnetic technique to get rid of condensation running down the windows - most of the problem was caused by the student tenants drying washing on the gas fired radiators.

It can be quite a tricky DIY job, but I managed it OK. In my opinion helping you achieve a 1970s level of insulation is the least your landlord should do for you.

I think I would abandon trying to heat the bathroom and stair well and concentrate on sealing the kitchen door. I expect an electrician will be along soon to explain what is allowed in bathrooms these days - I have got the old fashioned solution of an infra red lamp and a pull cord blower and turn them on 15 minutes before needing to use it.