Section 20: £9500 replacement of windows. Guidance needed on necessity please!

firsttimebuyer12_2

Hello all,

I have received a Section 20 notice from my local Council, the freeholder of the flat which I am the leaseholder of.

The notice tells me they are planning to install new windows in my 2 bed flat along with the other 5 in my 3 storey block within the estate, at a cost of around £9500 per flat including scaffolding to the second floor and the management fee.

The windows are old and single glazed they but seem in good condition to me and could last many years longer with minor repairs where necessary. The council had also originally suggested repairing windows at the initial consultation meeting but it asked the contractor for a quote on replacement as well. Following a survey (done by the contractor that will carry out the window replacement work under a long term agreement) the contractor has perhaps unsurprisingly decided that replacement is necessary, massively increasing its earnings from the job (£2million over the whole estate!).

I'm trying to get hold of the contractor's survey from the housing dept or by an FOI request if necessary to see the reasons why they believe the windows need replacing.

In the mean time, I would appreciate any suggestions on how I could convince the council (or LVT) that replacement is unreasonable and repairs would be enough. Are there any guidelines from standard industry bodies regarding when windows need repair and/or replacement? To be clear, I'm not looking for the standards required for new windows, but for guidelines on when to replace existing windows. I can't find anything official-looking from a couple of hours searching online.

Also, if I was to get an independent professional opinion, which profession would carry most weight in the eyes of an LVT: a surveyor, a window installer or another profession I haven't thought of?

Many thanks for reading and for your insightful replies.

twohalfsapiece

For anyone reading this - please be aware of the dangers when buying a leasehold property - especially oF Barratt Homes - I pity you friend - sadly you are being stung like countless people up and down the country who own a leasehold property

168hourweek

Hi
Check T &C of lease
They can repair but cannot replace unless you agree check wording
Good luck

blckbrd

168hourweek wrote: »

Hi
Check T &C of lease
They can repair but cannot replace unless you agree check wording
Good luck

Leaseholder agreement is not required.

I've seen the odd, old council lease where all but the window frame is demised to the lessee but not many. In any event the landlord could still carry out work and charge. This article explains.

OP FOI allows 20 working days for response whereas you have 30 days to respond to the notice. Make use of the opportunity within s20 legislation to inspect and copy documentation and specifically ask to see the survey and what ever else you may feel relevant. Sometimes, the whole kit and caboodle is not provided in the bundle of docs.

Also, your block may not have been directly surveyed at all. A practice which worked out favourably for Tremlett Grove lessees.

Councils forward-plan works on a cyclical basis so you should bear in mind that it's not just the present condition that's taken into account and other works to be done using the same scaffold might be urgent.

I doubt you will stop the work going ahead but lots of people successfully challenge charges at LVT (of course the opposite is true). Could try trawling through some of the cases involving windows on the Leasehold Advisory Service website for info.

Managed to find this about some of the considerations involved in window work - might be a useful starting point for questions to the council.

teneighty

As others have said, the lease usually only allows the freeholder to recover cost of repairs, not replacements and improvements.

So my first line of attack would be to argue that only the cost of repairs should be recovered. There is no hard and fast rule about when a window needs to be replaced, just a judgement call when the cost of repairs and on-going maintenance out weigh the cost of replacement windows. However, in reality this point is rarely reached as the replacement windows are simply chosen as betterment, benefits of double glazing, draught seals etc. But that is not a position the freeholder can impose on you. It might be worth employing a Chartered Building Surveyor to inspect the windows and prepare a report together with a letter to the freeholder.

My second line of attack would be the unreasonable cost. £9,500 for windows in a 2 bed flat on a 3 storey block. Are they joking? Have you got your own quotes for replacement windows?

Local Authorities are generally pretty hopeless at working with the section 20 procedures so with a bit of homework and minimal professional help you should be able to scupper their ridiculous plans.

Just make sure you raise your objections within the time frame and get the tenants/leaseholder association involved if there is one.

Lots of info here http://www.lease-advice.org/

Good Luck

blckbrd beat me to it.....slow typing

Hoof_Hearted

I don't know much about lease conditions but £9,500 seems extraordinarily expensive. In my experience, favoured contractors rip councils off to a huge extent. Did the contract go to tender and was the process followed correctly. If a small job, e,g, just your block, were other quotes obtained?

blckbrd

Ahhh I am so thick! The distinction between 'repairing' and 'improvement' covenants. Apologies.

Window renewal can be seen as a repair rather than an improvement - info here and councils have relied on that ruling.

Meant to say OP, all of the windows in the block may not be in as good nick as yours and the policy is to do the block as a whole as it's more cost effective - apparently.

Cost of works to Council blocks... All I can say is contractors seem to do very well out of it. Having bidded on big block/estate contracts in a competitive tendering environment (which would also have been consulted on) it's difficult to compare that with a one off quotes for a single unit.

propertyman

The problem is that the fix is in when it comes to Council and Ha properties- words in ears have been had, when it comes to LVT and the UT LC nothing official or provable of course :eek:just the proper context as Sir Humphrey used to insinuate.

Now as to the windows if they are yours then have a chat with the contractor and find out which windows they used eg the manufacturer or extruder- asking what quality are they etc- and rush out and have them installed yourself. Many are assembled from the inside out these days, not needing scaffold. Just match the openings and frame and colour.

before you do this you add legal expenses cover to your insurance and then if they even sniff at your windows which are in repair you threaten an injunction.

tim123456789

twohalfsapiece wrote: »

For anyone reading this - please be aware of the dangers when buying a leasehold property - especially oF Barratt Homes - I pity you friend - sadly you are being stung like countless people up and down the country who own a leasehold property

I have to say that this is the danger of buying an ex-council flat rathen then from any named builder.

Work gets scheduled because the council have a spare slot in their diary to do work on the flats that still have council tenants in and all of the owner-occupied flats get told that they have to have it done as well, needed or not!

and when they get tenders for the work they create minimum "standards" on the companies that can do the work such that only high cost national companies can tender wheras your local father and son builder could have done the job for half the price.

Ther OP can take the matter to an LVT, but it wll be a long haul

Ivana_Tinkle

Doesn't double glazing come under the Decent Homes thing? If so, then I wouldn't have thought you'd got a hope of preventing them changing the windows, and £9.5k is a fairly typical cost. (Not saying it's reasonable, just that it's typical, and that I've come across leaseholders in London being charged nearly double that!) How long have you owned the flat? Did your solicitor warn you that this might be one of the perils of buying ex-council?

mkgirl1981

there's a flat in my area that I'm interested in & I've been told the council will be replacing the windows & front doors with new double glazing & private residents have been asked to pay £1000 towards the cost. This is for a one bedroom flat with a balcony so the living room has a door with a widow either side. That price seems a lot more fair - £9500 seems really excessive for a two bed flat to be done.