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Employer wants to sue me!
The_cleaning_guy
Posts: 20 Forumite
Hello there,
I would like some help please!
I and my friend are window cleaners, we worked for a guy, me since Feb 2012 and my colleague since June 2012.
Due to the weather we were told no point coming to work all of last week, my employer sent us out pricing up houses for one day but he said he may have to pay us a reduced hourly rate, this was never confirmed. But we did it anyway.
Last Thursday my employer called to say all there was for this week was an indoor job on Wednesday. He said we could use up a couple of days annual leave to try and make up a bit of money, but clearly this makes for short weeks and less holiday pay to take, we used every day last year on rainy days, neither of us had a booked day off, just had to use it up to cover days when we couldnt work.
Anyway this Monday we were offered a days trial, both of us for another firm, nothing else to do so we went. We got on fantastic and have been offered full time ongoing work but he wants us to carry on from Monday, feeling a bit desperate we both agreed we felt we had to go for it, I then told our current employer.
I had an email from him on Tuesday to say...And I will paste some extracts below.
I would love some views please, and advice if possible!
It has never been spoken about four weeks!! And I never would have agreed to such a thing anyway, and we have never had any kind of written statement stating any terms at all.
And he regularly sent text messages on the morning to say dont bother coming in its raining! And I have all his messages from Feb.
Many thanks
Whilst we have never actually given you a written statement of employment during your time with us we believe the main elements of such an agreement were well understood between us and put into practice throughout that time. When you were first interviewed for the job we discussed and agreed upon, rates of pay, holiday entitlement, nature of your duties and notice period to name just a few of the main areas. You turned up for work regularly, were given work assignments in line with your role and at agreed rates of pay. You were paid on time on a regular weekly basis and were given pay slips. That constitutes a contract of employment. I remember distinctly at your initial interview that we discussed that as employer and employee we would give each other four weeks notice to terminate the employment agreement and we both accepted this. Just because you don't have a written contract of employment it does not automatically follow that we had no agreement at all. Such an agreement can be verbal or written. The requirement to give four week's notice was part of that agreement. It is a custom practised by this firm from it's outset and we will argue that this was clearly understood right from the outset by both of you.
As you have both failed to give us any notice we consider you are in breach of contract and we have the right to pursue damages.
Even if we did not have an agreement to give each other four week's notice, regardless of any written or verbal agreement, your have a statutory right to give your employer one week's notice. As you did not do this you are once again in breach of contract.
Imagine if things were the other way round and late one evening we suddenly e-mailed you to say 'dont bother turning up for work tomorrow'. I am sure you would not have been very pleased to say the least.
The sudden nature of yours' and Steve's departure as our only two cleaning operatives puts our business in a very precarious position. We have already had to cancel contracts this week. Given that I can only work part-time due to my health problems, the time scales involved in finding and training up suitable replacements, the fact that we will lose lots of customers in the meantime due to our inability to complete all of the cleaning schedule over the next few months, and then the time-frames in winning new business to replace what has been lost, I estimate we will lose in excess of £2,000 each month on average over the next 6 months. A total of £12,000 which is significant and will be easily proveable in a County Court.
As both you and Steve failed to give even one week's notice of termination of your employment and, as a result, were in breach of that contract we do not intend to pay either of you for any work carried out last week or for any accrued holiday pay. We will also hold on to (by way of lien) any small tools or nuts and bolts we may have belonging to either of you (albeit these amount to only a few pounds in value). We want neither of you to visit our vehicles or home address again as we will consider this as trespass.
As mentioned earlier there is every likelihood of a substantial claim for compensation which we could make against both of you once we are in a better position to quantify what the final impact of your premature departure has caused us over the next few months.
We will keep you posted. In the mean time please do not doubt our resolve.
I would like some help please!
I and my friend are window cleaners, we worked for a guy, me since Feb 2012 and my colleague since June 2012.
Due to the weather we were told no point coming to work all of last week, my employer sent us out pricing up houses for one day but he said he may have to pay us a reduced hourly rate, this was never confirmed. But we did it anyway.
Last Thursday my employer called to say all there was for this week was an indoor job on Wednesday. He said we could use up a couple of days annual leave to try and make up a bit of money, but clearly this makes for short weeks and less holiday pay to take, we used every day last year on rainy days, neither of us had a booked day off, just had to use it up to cover days when we couldnt work.
Anyway this Monday we were offered a days trial, both of us for another firm, nothing else to do so we went. We got on fantastic and have been offered full time ongoing work but he wants us to carry on from Monday, feeling a bit desperate we both agreed we felt we had to go for it, I then told our current employer.
I had an email from him on Tuesday to say...And I will paste some extracts below.
I would love some views please, and advice if possible!
It has never been spoken about four weeks!! And I never would have agreed to such a thing anyway, and we have never had any kind of written statement stating any terms at all.
And he regularly sent text messages on the morning to say dont bother coming in its raining! And I have all his messages from Feb.
Many thanks
Whilst we have never actually given you a written statement of employment during your time with us we believe the main elements of such an agreement were well understood between us and put into practice throughout that time. When you were first interviewed for the job we discussed and agreed upon, rates of pay, holiday entitlement, nature of your duties and notice period to name just a few of the main areas. You turned up for work regularly, were given work assignments in line with your role and at agreed rates of pay. You were paid on time on a regular weekly basis and were given pay slips. That constitutes a contract of employment. I remember distinctly at your initial interview that we discussed that as employer and employee we would give each other four weeks notice to terminate the employment agreement and we both accepted this. Just because you don't have a written contract of employment it does not automatically follow that we had no agreement at all. Such an agreement can be verbal or written. The requirement to give four week's notice was part of that agreement. It is a custom practised by this firm from it's outset and we will argue that this was clearly understood right from the outset by both of you.
As you have both failed to give us any notice we consider you are in breach of contract and we have the right to pursue damages.
Even if we did not have an agreement to give each other four week's notice, regardless of any written or verbal agreement, your have a statutory right to give your employer one week's notice. As you did not do this you are once again in breach of contract.
Imagine if things were the other way round and late one evening we suddenly e-mailed you to say 'dont bother turning up for work tomorrow'. I am sure you would not have been very pleased to say the least.
The sudden nature of yours' and Steve's departure as our only two cleaning operatives puts our business in a very precarious position. We have already had to cancel contracts this week. Given that I can only work part-time due to my health problems, the time scales involved in finding and training up suitable replacements, the fact that we will lose lots of customers in the meantime due to our inability to complete all of the cleaning schedule over the next few months, and then the time-frames in winning new business to replace what has been lost, I estimate we will lose in excess of £2,000 each month on average over the next 6 months. A total of £12,000 which is significant and will be easily proveable in a County Court.
As both you and Steve failed to give even one week's notice of termination of your employment and, as a result, were in breach of that contract we do not intend to pay either of you for any work carried out last week or for any accrued holiday pay. We will also hold on to (by way of lien) any small tools or nuts and bolts we may have belonging to either of you (albeit these amount to only a few pounds in value). We want neither of you to visit our vehicles or home address again as we will consider this as trespass.
As mentioned earlier there is every likelihood of a substantial claim for compensation which we could make against both of you once we are in a better position to quantify what the final impact of your premature departure has caused us over the next few months.
We will keep you posted. In the mean time please do not doubt our resolve.
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Comments
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Okay, I'm not a legal expert, and for a proper opinion I recommend you post this again here: https://www.redundancyforum.co.uk
However, if you breach your contract by not giving proper notice, the employer can sue for provable losses. It often doesn't happen in practice, but this employer obviously does feel they have suffered losses, can prove it, and have every intention of taking you to court. Looks like they've taken correct legal advice as well.
They can do this, I'm afraid. Their losses may be limited - eg, a court may rule that they could have recruited within 3 weeks (say), and therefore only award losses that amount to the work lost within that time period.
But please post on the other forum I've given you - there's an employment barrister there who will advise on the legal side. You may need a solicitor.
KiKi' <-- See that? It's called an apostrophe. It does not mean "hey, look out, here comes an S".0 -
Bluff. Even if he could make 4 weeks stick, he could not make 6 months stick, the £12000 is spurious. He has also wrong footed himself by threatening to withhold pay for work you have done.
Having said that, he might successfully claim one weeks loss of profit (not loss of turnover) or 4 weeks loss if he can prove you were on 4 weeks notice.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
I have read and read hundreds of articles and thats what I have found, in the absence of any written terms it would automatically fall to statutory notice, there was no verbal agreement for either of us.
So surely he can only claim for the one week, which we werent able to work anyway due to still being sub zero temps!
Bloody hell we are window cleaners, he is a one man band working out of his garage! Not a massive company.0 -
Kiki,just registered and awaiting my email confirmation, thank you very much!0
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SarEl has the bit between her teeth and has come to his rescue...
http://www.redundancyforum.co.uk/employment-help-advice-employees/6698-employer-wants-sue-me/
Thecleaningguy SarEl is an Employment Barrister so your exemployer will not know what hit him when she gives drafts the letter.
SarEl used to post on here but a very very small minority of ignorant posters did not appreciate the good thing we had an MSE.0 -
Wow, get SarE1 on side and youre a winner.
Go girl, and OP, you will owe her 1 very large Whisky once she has wiped the floor with him.make the most of it, we are only here for the weekend.
and we will never, ever return.0 -
I am so pleased too! I went from feeling rock bottom and frankly a bit scared to being so excited, I have never been spoken to in his manner and just want the last word, and my personal bits and pieces.
Huge thank you to Kiki for pointing me in the right direction.0 -
SarEl has the bit between her teeth and has come to his rescue...
http://www.redundancyforum.co.uk/employment-help-advice-employees/6698-employer-wants-sue-me/
Thecleaningguy SarEl is an Employment Barrister so your exemployer will not know what hit him when she gives drafts the letter.
SarEl used to post on here but a very very small minority of ignorant posters did not appreciate the good thing we had an MSE.
Including MSE themselves, who decided her posting style wasn't to their liking. Regardless of all the people she was helping for free.If you haven't got it - please don't flaunt it. TIA.0 -
Such a shame that this forum is frightening off the real experts and consequently its own 'customers' elsewhere......SarEl has the bit between her teeth and has come to his rescue...
http://www.redundancyforum.co.uk/employment-help-advice-employees/6698-employer-wants-sue-me/
Thecleaningguy SarEl is an Employment Barrister so your exemployer will not know what hit him when she gives drafts the letter.
SarEl used to post on here but a very very small minority of ignorant posters did not appreciate the good thing we had an MSE.0 -
The_cleaning_guy wrote: »I have read and read hundreds of articles and thats what I have found, in the absence of any written terms it would automatically fall to statutory notice, there was no verbal agreement for either of us.
So surely he can only claim for the one week, which we werent able to work anyway due to still being sub zero temps!
Bloody hell we are window cleaners, he is a one man band working out of his garage! Not a massive company.
Doesn't absolutely have to be WRITTEN terms, nor does it have to be signed.
You are right that in the absence of contractual terms notice required from an employee never increases above one week.
Without something in writing he will struggle to prove anything longer was agreed but watch out for him magically finding copies of letters etc which he will claim to have sent you. The fact that there are two of you helps.
I'm sure SarEl will draft an excellent letter for you, give her my regards!0
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