The Issue of Bill Being Overcharged and Undercharged

Cardew

olly300 wrote: »

I don't pay my utilities- gas and electricity- by Direct Debit because:
1. I have had enough hassle with phone companies over normal charges
2. I use telephone/online banking to pay bills. It needs more organisation but it's not hard. (Notice board in front of computer)
3. My bill amounts vary widely and all my estimated bills are completely over estimated normally by a minimum of £50. I only ever have had one bill that was underestimated in the past 2 years and that was by £3.

It is of course everyones choice to pay how they wish.

The reason why most of us pay Gas/Electricity by Direct Debit is:

There is normally a substantial discount for DD which is way more than the savings in interest.

For the vast majority it is a no fuss way of taking out the same amount each month.

According to the Regulator Utility companies are owed far more than they owe. If posts on this forum are typical there are many huge debit balances of £hundreds even £thousands - which are paid back over a year or two. Yet some people get hysterical if they are £100 in credit in the middle of winter - paying a DD that they have agreed.

I must quibble there. There is nothing that says a direct debit is for a fixed amount every month. The one with my phone company isn't

However, if I entered into an agreement about a monthly plan then it would very likely be a fixed amount each month.

I didn't say that a DD had to be for a fixed amount.

I have 4 accounts(Sky, a phone company and 2 credit card companies - I pay full balance) where variable amounts are taken each month. However with these I am notified in advance with a statement each month that £x.yy will be taken from my account on a certain date.

That is not practical with Utility companies as the system is geared to quarterly bills(6 monthly for metered water) So I am told that £x will be taken each month on a certain date. I can accept this amount or dispute it and negotiate another sum - we end up in agreement.

For me the system has worked almost faultlessly for many years. I might have a debit or credit at the end of the year(not a lot either way) but so what?

If a bill is wrongly estimated it gives me a false credit/debit balance, but again so what? The next time a actual reading is taken we are back in sync.

Cardew

Squire_Fulwood wrote: »

I suppose the actual truth is that I mistrust utility companies. I have been in dispute with one or the other of them for most of my adult life including the one who kept sending me red bills for two years even though I had paid the bills as they were received. The Gas Consumers Council got involved in that one.

I repeat, it's not a jaundiced view of budget plans but of the companies operating them. I feel that if I stay with the more traditional billing arrangements then I can take the option of not paying the bill until we agree it. I certainly would not let them take the money directly given the experiences I have had with them.

Thinking back, it would have been a bit of a nightmare if I had let that company into my bank account. Every time I paid a bill they then sent me a red bill and after a time I got a personal debt chaser phoning me at home telling me I had not paid them.

Finally I got one of the best written apologies ever and I vowed never to let them directly debit my account.

I really can't understand the relevance of the point you are making with regard to Direct Debits as the whole point of the Direct Debit scheme is that it is Guaranteed by the Banks. – Read the Direct Debit Guarantee on every agreement.

You and the company agree in advance how much they are going to take from your account. If they take one penny more than that agreed sum you go to the Bank and they have to refund it and it is their responsibility to take the matter up with the Company.

There is absolutely no question of " letting that company into my bank account."

In fact paying by DD would have solved the problem you had of red bills when paying the bill after receiving it.

Squire_Fulwood

Cardew wrote: »

I didn't say that a DD had to be for a fixed amount.

Thank you. You make my point for me.

olly300

Cardew wrote: »

I really can't understand the relevance of the point you are making with regard to Direct Debits as the whole point of the Direct Debit scheme is that it is Guaranteed by the Banks. – Read the Direct Debit Guarantee on every agreement.

You and the company agree in advance how much they are going to take from your account. If they take one penny more than that agreed sum you go to the Bank and they have to refund it and it is their responsibility to take the matter up with the Company.

There is absolutely no question of " letting that company into my bank account."

In fact paying by DD would have solved the problem you had of red bills when paying the bill after receiving it.

Actually it is fine in theory but it doesn't work like that.

Some banks (and I can name 2) have staff who make up excuses so that the Direct Debit Guarantee is not honoured unless you threaten to take them to the financial ombudsman.

If you have a company taking £1000 out of your account with 5 days notice and you have a bank that refuses to honour the Direct Debit Guarantee i.e. turned down the payment because it is incorrect, then you will be fighting with your bank so you get the money refunded and are not charged for being overdrawn. Even though the bank is not suppose to give away your money without your express permission and it is none of their business if you refuse to pay the Direct Debit.(BTW my problem was with amounts smaller than this.)

The bank I have my main account with now, honours the Direct Debit Guarantee without a fuss.

Also some utility companies have a problem if they enter your name or address details incorrectly as they think you are two different people/households and will set up two accounts. Paying by Direct Debit doesn't solve this problem. (I am currently sorting out a problem with a water company over this.)

olly300

Cardew wrote: »

It is of course everyones choice to pay how they wish.

The reason why most of us pay Gas/Electricity by Direct Debit is:

There is normally a substantial discount for DD which is way more than the savings in interest.

For the vast majority it is a no fuss way of taking out the same amount each month.

According to the Regulator Utility companies are owed far more than they owe. If posts on this forum are typical there are many huge debit balances of £hundreds even £thousands - which are paid back over a year or two. Yet some people get hysterical if they are £100 in credit in the middle of winter - paying a DD that they have agreed.

In my case due to the gas being over estimated for 7 billing periods out of 8 by a minimum of £50 and underestimated by £3 on one of them (not the last bill) it obviously wouldn't work.

It seems that my bill was estimated on the usage of the previous occupants who were a family of 4 even though I was a household of 1-2 for 2 years.

Strangely in the previous place I lived the estimated bills, different utility company, where within £10 of usage.

So I obviously have to live in a place for 2 years with the same utility company before I'm likely to get a correctly estimated bill.

Cardew

olly300 wrote: »

Actually it is fine in theory but it doesn't work like that.

Some banks (and I can name 2) have staff who make up excuses so that the Direct Debit Guarantee is not honoured unless you threaten to take them to the financial ombudsman.

If you have a company taking £1000 out of your account with 5 days notice and you have a bank that refuses to honour the Direct Debit Guarantee i.e. turned down the payment because it is incorrect, then you will be fighting with your bank so you get the money refunded and are not charged for being overdrawn. Even though the bank is not suppose to give away your money without your express permission and it is none of their business if you refuse to pay the Direct Debit.(BTW my problem was with amounts smaller than this.)

The bank I have my main account with now, honours the Direct Debit Guarantee without a fuss.

Also some utility companies have a problem if they enter your name or address details incorrectly as they think you are two different people/households and will set up two accounts. Paying by Direct Debit doesn't solve this problem. (I am currently sorting out a problem with a water company over this.)

It would appear that you are arguing that some Banks don't comply with the rules, and using that argument against the Direct Debit scheme.

I can only suggest you change your Bank and/or Utility company.

This link from the Ombudsman states very clearly what should happen.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm

If the Utility company make a mistake, fail to notify you of an change in your DD etc you are covered by the DD guarantee viz:

If the originator or the bank/building society makes an error, the customer is guaranteed a full and immediate refund of the amount paid.

I accept totally the point you make; that Banks and Utility companies can be difficult, and sorting out mistakes can be a pain. However I am not clear what you you are advocating.
Is it that we should forgo the financial savings and convienience of paying by DD? If so I disagree.

I have had DDs for many years with loads of companies(currently about 12 are running) and never had a single problem connected to the Direct Debit aspect of those accounts.

olly300

Cardew wrote: »

I accept totally the point you make; that Banks and Utility companies can be difficult, and sorting out mistakes can be a pain. However I am not clear what you you are advocating.
Is it that we should forgo the financial savings and convenience of paying by DD? If so I disagree.

I have had DDs for many years with loads of companies(currently about 12 are running) and never had a single problem connected to the Direct Debit aspect of those accounts.

I have changed my bank account. (I've changed 3 times since I've been 18 for various reasons.)

Nope. I'm just pointing out that if you have had any problems with Direct Debits and banks, including Direct Debits for standard amounts, you will not think Direct Debits are convenient.

The savings made for some Direct Debits don't equal the cost in time, telephone calls, emails and postage (lots of companies deny receiving letters unless sent by recorded delivery) in sorting out an incorrectly debited amounts. (I've just sorted out direct debits with 2 telephone companies and had to take them to their regulator.)

Unfortunately stories like mine put people off paying by Direct Debit for that reason.

Squire_Fulwood

I suppose that this might be considered humerous by some people after I took the side of the customer by criticising companies. My ISP cut off me off on the 24th. The reason they gave was that since I have requested an upgrade they cut off the old service.

They intend to connect my new upgraded service on May 1st. Now let me see, 24 April to 1st May is one week for which I am paying them to get absolutely no service at all and they have a direct debit agreement so that they can take the money anyway.

I shall object and see what crumbs they offer. I wish I was holding the money because I would be arguing from a stronger position.

I have re-instated an old dial up to Tesco's as an emergency measure. Did we really used to live at this speed.