Not 'doing' Santa

OrkneyStar

Bitsy_Beans wrote: »

I guess this is where our kids differ. Mine don't turn round and say this isn't real. They just carry on playing :rotfl:

I suspect I am labouring the point as I will probably just not get it but what is the crux of the problem of pretending he's real? I mean what is it about that which is so bad? Is it that we are leading our children on? That we should never ever lie? Is it that he's taking more focus away from the Nativity? Am genuinely interested.

I have been thinking about this. I was once asked at a job interview 'is honesty important?' apparently my reply was the fastest and most committed 'yes' (the man I went on to work with sat in on the interview though he was not doing all the asking). So perhaps it is the lying thing, I just cannot do it. The thing is I am not saying anyone else is a 'lesser being' for doing it, indeed it may well make life easier sometimes .
I do honestly want to give DS a good childhood and so far (he is only 5) I have not set out to or knowingly lied to him. As said before tact is needed, responses tailored to age, un-solicited information not offered to other children/parents.
If anything, going against the grain, makes me (and DS perhaps) think about what we say to people, how we say it, so we can express what we believe without hurting others around us.
I am not suggesting that you, or anyone else, is harming their child with FC, but I am saying I just don't/can't do it.
I hope this is some explanation, not expecting everyone to agree but at least give others the freedom to express their opinions without 'bashing' (you haven't).
.
As for the playing thing, DS too will continue playing and making voices from the teddies, after reminding me it's not real . He's a funny boy sometimes, makes me smile with the things he comes out with, we are scottish yet a lot of his teddies have english or american accents lol!

Bitsy_Beans

OrkneyStar wrote: »

I have been thinking about this. I was once asked at a job interview 'is honesty important?' apparently my reply was the fastest and most committed 'yes' (the man I went on to work with sat in on the interview though he was not doing all the asking). So perhaps it is the lying thing, I just cannot do it. The thing is I am not saying anyone else is a 'lesser being' for doing it, indeed it may well make life easier sometimes .
I do honestly want to give DS a good childhood and so far (he is only 5) I have not set out to or knowingly lied to him. As said before tact is needed, responses tailored to age, un-solicited information not offered to other children/parents.
If anything, going against the grain, makes me (and DS perhaps) think about what we say to people, how we say it, so we can express what we believe without hurting others around us.
I am not suggesting that you, or anyone else, is harming their child with FC, but I am saying I just don't/can't do it.
I hope this is some explanation, not expecting everyone to agree but at least give others the freedom to express their opinions without 'bashing' (you haven't).
.
As for the playing thing, DS too will continue playing and making voices from the teddies, after reminding me it's not real . He's a funny boy sometimes, makes me smile with the things he comes out with, we are scottish yet a lot of his teddies have english or american accents lol!

:rotfl::rotfl: my DS is 7 and we frequently have American accent :rotfl::rotfl:

Thanks for explaining, appreciate what you've said. I have to go and wrap presents now but it's been interesting talking to you
Merry Christmas to you and yours......and for everyone else for that matter

OrkneyStar

Bitsy_Beans wrote: »

:rotfl::rotfl: my DS is 7 and we frequently have American accent :rotfl::rotfl:

Thanks for explaining, appreciate what you've said. I have to go and wrap presents now but it's been interesting talking to you
Merry Christmas to you and yours......and for everyone else for that matter

Thanks. I have to go and clean and hoover .
Merry Christmas to one and all .

Janepig

jellyhead wrote: »

Maybe my town is just miserable then! The teachers give small gifts such as a pencil or a candy cane.

Same here JH, Father Christmas (Sion Corn) doesn't come to DD/DS's school either, although he is usually at the Christmas Fete. I don't know if he was there this year because I didn't take my two - I was still suffering the effects of a gale force hangover after spending the night away from them - they were just happy to have me home :D.

Jx

Air_Cooled_75

Christmas is once a year, religion is ongoing (apparently, unless you look at the cherry pickers) I really don't see the harm with Father Christmas. Kids grow up at an alarming rate these days, let them have their 5 mins of wonder. my 2.5 yr old saw FC at the nursery Crimbo party today and his face was a picture. If he wants to carry this on we aren't going to put the kibosh on it. It's a couple of weeks every year, probably only for a few years. If its lying, then every book I've ever read to him is too.

notanewuser

Air_Cooled_75 wrote: »

Christmas is once a year, religion is ongoing (apparently, unless you look at the cherry pickers) I really don't see the harm with Father Christmas. Kids grow up at an alarming rate these days, let them have their 5 mins of wonder. my 2.5 yr old saw FC at the nursery Crimbo party today and his face was a picture. If he wants to carry this on we aren't going to put the kibosh on it. It's a couple of weeks every year, probably only for a few years. If its lying, then every book I've ever read to him is too.

Totally missed the point, but thanks for posting.

skintchick

I meant to post here last night but ran out of time. I'm about to quote and reply to loads of posts, sorry if that's a bit tedious, I'll do it all in one post though so you can skip

Nicki wrote: »

I lie to my 3 year old all the time! Huge outrageous lies which he sees right through and usually laughs uproariously at. Like claiming it is he who broke wind when it was me or that his broccoli is a bonsai tree or there is a shark in his bath water. I find it all part of the fun of having a young child and it is a shared pleasure in the same way as Father Christmas is. I am really struggling with the accusation that any lie to a child is immoral to be honest.

I think you're struggling with it because you seem to be struggling with the subtle but important distinction between making believe about something, and actually making out that it is true.

With make believe, you aren't actually telling him that his broccoli is a tree. You don't intend for him to believe that it is a small tree. You pretend it is a small tree in the knowledge that both of you know it isn't, and that because you both know that, you can both laugh together at calling it a little tree. It is a shared joke.

With FC, you the parents tell your child it is true, that FC is a real being with real magical powers. You know he isn't, but you encourage your child to believe that he is. It is different to make believe, because if it were make believe you would let him know that FC is not real, but just a made up story, in the same way you let him know that broccoli is not a tree.

THAT is the problem I have with it. Which is why I tell DD FC is a story, so she still gets to make believe about it, but we are both on the same page, as it were, and we both know it's just a fun thing to make believe about.

Does that make it any clearer?

Bitsy_Beans wrote: »

But what do you consider to be make believe? I assume your children have active imaginations? Why is Santa so different from other areas of make believe? Because grown ups collude in it? One (at a stretch) could argue I am doing the same when I have pretend tea parties with my DD. she believes she's giving me a cup of tea......should I not go along with the lie and drink the non existent drink? <

---

is said tongue in cheek I grant you
I am really not being obtuse but I genuinely don't see what the big deal is <shrug>

As above, Bitsy. It's different because you know FC is not real but you encourage your child to believe that he is. When you have tea parties with DD, you pretend to drink the tea but you BOTH know there is no real tea, you BOTH pretend TOGETHER. With FC it is different, you are on different sides of the knowledge.

It's just as ORkneyStar said earlier:

OrkneyStar wrote: »

I have no problem with make believe, no problem with Santa as make believe, the problem I have is people trying to make out to their children that Santa is real, that he really exists, followed on by dislike of anyone else who doesn't do this (not directing this at you, but there has been this sort of feeling in the thread I think).
DS seems to love make believe, but he knows that is what it is, we pretend the teddies talk but halfway through he'll say 'mummy, it isn't real you know', as if to remind me! He dresses up as all sorts of heroes, doctors etc, he loves that sort of thing.

Bitsy_Beans wrote: »

I guess this is where our kids differ. Mine don't turn round and say this isn't real. They just carry on playing :rotfl:

I suspect I am labouring the point as I will probably just not get it but what is the crux of the problem of pretending he's real? I mean what is it about that which is so bad? Is it that we are leading our children on? That we should never ever lie? Is it that he's taking more focus away from the Nativity? Am genuinely interested.

Well, for the crux is that it is a lie, an untruth, and I don;t agree with lying. At all.

I think it was you who mentioned the deer in the car? I'd have just said the car hit a deer and made a dent in the car. Further questioning would be answered truthfully and gently, but if I had to tell her that the deer is probably dying in the woods then, yes, I'd tell her that.

Bitsy_Beans wrote: »

TBH I think badly of people who suggest that by perpetuating a myth I am a liar and all that implies. I am truthful with my children when appropriate but I find it rather pretentious when people sit in their ivory towers declaring how they'll never lie to their children. ETA my H hit a deer with his car (well more the other way round). Kids noticed damage to car wanted to know why. We told them deer hit car and ran away. Did I really want to tell my kids deer was maimed and probably going to die an agonising death? Not particularly so in order to spare their distress we "lied". Does that make for bad parenting? Are we supposed to be able to present something's one way but not others?
Well I believe in Father Christmas. He was a real individual and I like to believe his spirit and generosity lives on albeit in a more secular guise.

Ah yes, it was you!

Problem is that it IS a lie, whether you like that or not. If you tell someone that something is true, when you know it is not, then you are telling a lie. THere's just no way around that I'm afraid.

As for your last comment, I take it you also believe in Jesus and God in the same way? After all, Jesus was a real documented human being (he is mentioned in Roman documents).

And last but not least

Mojisola wrote: »

skintchick - do you ever say "That's lovely" or "I think that's really nice/you've done really well" to your child?

Children generally want their efforts recognised and want to please adults close to them and want to feel valued and appreciated. If my parents had just fed me back facts about my childish efforts, I think I would have read the sub-text as "I don't think that's very good but I've got to say something about it".

Like quantumleap, I couldn't have parented by following someone else's rules. There are many tools in the parenting toolbox and most parents use whatever is appropriate at the time. I've also found (as a parent and a teacher) that different children need different techniques. Flexibility is the key to successful parenting.

No I don't say those things. Research has shown that children really value specific things said to them about their efforts, because they then value the effort they put into it.

Tonight DD brought home some artwork from preschool, and I commented on how carefully she had traced her letters, how colourful her angel was, how she had obviously spent a long time sticking the sequins on, comments designed to show that I have not just flicked my eyes on it and said 'oh yeah that's lovely', but that I have looked properly and appreciated her specific work on it.
What I was going to post last night was that it was DDs preschool party and she came home and of course said 'FC was at our party' and my reply was 'oh, you had A Father Christmas at the party. That sounds fun' and we talked about it but I simply made sure I talked about A Father Christmas, like i would about a clown, or a fairy if she'd been to a party with one of those.

It's the subtle language that reminds her that FC is not real, just a fun thing to make believe about, but she's not excluded from it, nor do I make such a big deal that she'd end up telling her friends. I'm hoping that that will cover all of us through the difficult years until her friends realise it's a load of nonsense, albeit fun nonsense.

Air_Cooled_75

I think the thread is too big to miss a point.

skintchick

Air_Cooled_75 wrote: »

I think the thread is too big to miss a point.

No thread on MSE is ever too big for someone to miss the point.

Person_one

notanewuser wrote: »

Totally missed the point, but thanks for posting.

Are you going to teach your children to be just as polite as you are?