My 4 year olds crying & tantrums fits - I don't know how much more I can take....

bluebell13

Oh, and when I am about to lose my cool cos they are both crying or fighting I put a really happy favourite song on and say 'come on, lets dance!'. It never fails!

Lavender13

To some extent I can empathise with you. We have had similiar situations, with no family support,due to demographic reasons. These are some of the things that have helped us:-
Is she/you tired? As this can trigger a low tolerance level.
Is all well at school? Ds became angry etc when he was being bullied at school aged 4.
Consistent. Being consisent helps( you both know the limits).
Setting boundaries,and most importantly sticking to them (I find this difficult).
Staying calm ( this one can be difficult, but can have great benefits)
Try focusing on positive qualities (hard to see sometimes when everynoe is cross)
United front ( you and hubby must support one another,and respond the same)
Omega 3 . This appears to have helped us (our opinion )
Full days at school will soon be here.Then you both will have a break from each other ,and maybe look forward to seeing one another.
Hope some of this helps.

drivingmeinsane

Thanks for all of your posts and replies, I am going to check out a few of the forums that you have mentioned. I also spoke to my friend on the way up the road - it is hard to mention this to people as it makes you feel like a complete failure and I found she has been feeling the same and her daughter is exactly the same as mine and this morning had a half hour tantrum because she asked her daughter to count to 10. After reading the post from AnnieK before I ran out of the door it is a huge releif that does seem to be normal in girls - while frustrating it was more wondering if I had dome something wrong to make her like this. It is hard to feel angry all the time - be honest, if you had to listen to a neighbours child screaming and crying all day wouldn't you get frustrated. imagine having that in the same house all day.

I'll answer a few questions here as well that people have asked.

I have 14 months between the 2 of them, I have bought them up the same they get treated the same, however my downfall is that if I threaten with punishment then i will not punish one without the other, if Igave one a treat I could not do that without doing the other so bad behaviour always rewarded I guess. I do know this has to stop and it did this week when my son ate one of his Easter chocolates efore dinner and I said there would be no 'afters' and I did not give him any. He learnt from this and did not go to the cupboard the next day. I too learned from this as well I hasten to add.

I have always bought my daughter u to help with my son when he was a baby and get her involved but she almost hates him. he does not get more of my timebut he is not as naughty so I guess he gets more time wit me as he is not sitting in his room screaming as she is.

She is very gifted and is an incredible artist for her age, she can almost read, knows the PC almost as well as I do and can write. However, if I was to sit and ask her to do any of these things with meshe will not want to know. A few weeks ago she had started a picture with sections in, a friend of mine was here and said that it would look nice in yeellow and started colouring it in - well you would have thought she had stolen her best teddy and burnt it on the fire from the fuss she kicked up. She does not like to sit and do things with anyone, it has to be her way only or not at all and generally on her own.

My friend and I was dicussing the naughty step this morning, I do put her on the step yes but for how long for. Does it start when she stops crying as this could be hours and then she'd be there for hours. If I put her there and get her off while crying then she has not been punished. The 1, 2 3 thing works perfect with my son but not my daughter. if I ask her to help me with something she does not want to know, my son does and helps me loads, my daughter just ignores me and pretends I have not asked her or she'll do the over dramtic thing and drag her knuckles to do it for about 3 seconds. Even a thing such as getting her shoes, she won't even get her own shoes on. I guess it is easy for me to do it but when getting out in the morning then I have not choice but to rush them and get them done myself else we will be late.

It is easy not to sy not to get frustrated but if you have someone screaming at you all day because they can't get their own way of course you are going to get annoyed - I feel I am lucky I have not had a nervous breakdown. Sometimes I laugh at her when she is in a major wobbly - well, I'll go into the kitchen and wash up or something and laugh - if I don't know I'll be in floods of tears and what is worse for a child to see.

And yes, we have tried reward charts and I never had any luck with them. the one thing I hav found recently worked was to ake the things she really wanted which was her craft box. I took it from her on tuesday, gave it back Wednesday and then after 20 minutes took it back off her as she threw something at me. I sometimes feel that this is uncredibly frustrating and unrewarding when I give up everything for them to get nothing in return but abuse.

I have to admit I am finding it harder and harder to show her affection when she is being so vile to me. I find it hard to get her out of time out after she has been agressive towards people and then give her a hug because then she has been rewarded with a cuddle for being nasty and I can't understand this part of it. of course, I make her say sorry but although she says it, it is without meaning and I can't see what this acheives if she does no mean it. My son only has to touch a pen of hers and she will leap off her chair come round and swing at him. I have seen her twice in the last week punch him full on in the face, the first time because he wanted to get on the trampoline with her and the minute he got into the enclosure she punched him in the face. She kicks him and is just generally nasty to him all the time. now this is not something she has learned from us so you really have to wonder what she is learning at school and the children she mixes with. She loves school by the way, I speak to her teacher regually, she is one of the best kids there that is friends with everybody which gives me some comfort because I never had many friends at school. I try and do as much for her as I can but am I doing and giving too much so that it has spoilt her boyind extreme. I am just so tired and exhausted.

Maybe full time school is a mums reward for putting up with our kids while they are little!!

drivingmeinsane

I forgot to say - she is already at Nursery tied to the school so she goes 5 mornings a week so already has the structure, my son will be going 5 mornings too. they both need this and the spcae from each other - so do I as it means I can get on and do things uninterrupted that otherwise I would be ignoring them for. I don't think she has anything wrong with her mentally and I don't think she is being bullied at school so I don't think this is the problem wither - she just whinges and complains as she can't get her own way on things. I already ignore her but sometimes it can seem like I have ignored her for an hour and she still does not learn. I get irritated because of the whinging for an hour (let's be honest, if your OH came hme shouting and screaming at you for an hour, would you not get annoyed, it does not matter what age they are it all has the same affect on us) and then I am supposed to just turn when it has stopped and give her a cuddle - this is the bit I am finding hard. It does go on for a very long time if I ignore her.

If I send her to her room each time she winges it'll mean she is in her room most of the day - she even takes herself off there now when I say 'room'. It just does not feel right and as she has been doing this for a year at least she is obviosuly not learning anything from me ignoring her and being sent to her room or on the naughty step, is she? Otherwise she would not do it?

full-time-mum

Poor you - kids can be so difficult.:grouphug:

Talk to her nursery, they should be sympathetic and may be able to help with some strategies to try. Or try your health visitor.

Have you read Toddler Taming by Dr Christopher Green - very down to earth book which may help.

Did this start when she went to nursery or has was it going on before then?
Generally speaking, it is best to try and ignore tantrums - I know its hard and not always practical. However, if this is new behaviour then you need to find out if there is a reason for it. It may be something as stupid as not liking the snacks at nursery or that the toilets smell - may seem trivial to you but to a child it can be the end of the world.

I remember standing in Woolies whilst DD (then 4ish) threw a wobbly. She lay on the floor, arms and legs going and screaming to high heaven. I turned my back on her. I kept getting funny looks from other shoppers so, for their benefit, I ended up giving a running commentry along the lines of "When you calm down, we can get on with the shopping" etc. I know it is not quite the same but it does serve to show that you are not alone.

It is so hard when they are like this. When my DD is nasty, I tell her that I love her very much but I don't like her when she is being like this. I say things like, you are making mummy feel very sad.

I've found that DD2s behaviour is worse when she is tired or hungry. We have a snack when we get back from school to raise blood sugar levels until tea-time.

Other random thoughts:

Try to avoid triggers - not necessarily practical but eg: if its the park, walk a different way home even if its longer.

Try sticker charts - but don't make the targets too hard to reach. Use small rewards - little and often.

Make a big point of praising the good behaviour - this is really really hard, but is very important especially if they seem to always be naughty. You have to actively look for the good, it does help. "well done, you got dressed all on your own - that is so helpful - now we've time for a quick story", "Wow, what a big breakfast you've eaten", "Gosh did you manage that all by yourself, what a clever girl you are". "I do like it when we can all walk to school nicely like this - its much more fun - shall we pick some daisies" You get the idea. (and don't forget to include your son too otherwise he may feel left out)

Walk to school rather than take the car if possible - exercise is good and you'll all be getting some fresh air. If you don't live near enough, drive to a point near school then walk the rest.

Small children's emotions get out of hand and they don't understand why they are feeling the way they do so sometimes it is best to just hold them tight in a bear hug until they calm down. Make a point of breathing deeply and calmly yourself and they should pick up on the cues and the panic will gradually subside - Mums sometimes have to be good actresses!

I find that we sometimes wind each other up and that the situation just escalates. They shout so you shout so they shout some more and you get even more angry. Remember that you are the adult and it is up to you to stop the vicious circle. Go for time out - put the child in one room and shut yourself in another and take a few deep breaths.


It seems so simple on paper but there are no magic wands, just lots of strategies that you have to keep trying. Some will work for you and others won't. Some will work one time but not the next. Just keep trying. I've come home from the school run on numerous occaisions with my stress levels way beyond exploding and had a good cry. I described to my eldest how I was feeling by using the cartoon example - you know, the character is so mad that his feet go red and it creeps up his body until it explodes out of his head - it was a really useful way to explain how they had made me feel. Maybe 4 is a bit young yet but it is a good way to describe how you feel to other adults too - I think it opened my OHs eyes!!!

jinky67

Just wanted to say your daughter is obviously very intelligent,makes things so much harder because they know they are right!.You have to stop giving off bad vibes to her,she will pick up on them.
I know its hard but do you have to pick her up on everrything she does? Give her a little leeway and she will calm down

aeuerby

After giving a child a warning before going to the naughty area, the time starts from when the child first sits down.
If they get up and wander round, then sit them back and the time starts again.
Having seen it on supernanny it can sometimes take an hour or more but that is where you have to be strong and consistent.
If you start the punishment you have to finish it.

If the child is crying after they have done the time still go and talk to them.
Get down to their level/height and explain why they have been put where they were. Explain what they did wrong. Don't let them move until you get an apology that is meant.

If they don't apologise nicely leave them there for another 4 minutes (or whatever age they are) and try again for the "nice" apology (I'm fairly sure that's what supernanny did!)
Then go back again and explain she did another 4 minutes because her apology was nasty or whatever.

I understand what you say about not wanting a hug when she has been naughty but as an adult you should not bear a grudge against a child.
The hug and apology signify the episode is over and you are both moving on.

Your daughter will eventually get the hang of it. But I cannot stress enough that whatever method you use you have to be consistent.
If you aren't it will just confuse her.

Removing a favourite toy is another supernanny trick.
After the tantrum is over and you've had an apology, a favourite toy can be removed.
It is not returned unless the child has been very good. Using the toys as part of the reward system.

In doing these things you child learns that there is a consequence to bad behaviour.
As she is 4, she is old enough to have some simple house rules and understand them.

Eg.
1. No hitting, punching or spitting.
2. When asked to help she does it.
3. No throwing things etc etc.

Breaking these rules will result in a warning.
If they break them again they go to the naughty area.

If she has no boundries she will struggle to understand what she can and can't do.

As has been suggested have a look at her sleeping/eating.
Is she settling down at night and sleeping well?
Does she have a good relaxing bedtime routine?
I used to insist mine have a half hour "calming down" (including bath and story etc) time which worked very well.
Is she having lots of sugar/stimulants before bedtime?

I can understand your daughters tantrum when your friend tried to colour in her picture. If your friend didn't ask and just did it it's very unfair.
Thats like you going to your friends house, saying I don't like the colour of your wall and painting it black without asking if it's ok with her.

Of course it's very easy for us all to sit here because we are not going through what you are going through.

I have 2 children (14 + 10) and just discovered we're having another one :eek:, and I have coped with their relatively minor (in comparison to yours) tantrums and when you're tired and fed up they are awful.
I have been in tears to hubby telling him how awful his kids are
Most of the time they were picking up on me and my feelings and would almost mirror them!

But it will get better.
She isn't a monster she is your lovely normal intelligent daughter and is looking to you for guidance and love.
You are doing a fantastic job.:A:A

bestpud

Hiya

I feel for you soooo much as I've been there myself and it is an absolute nightmare!

My first thoughts are that her intelligence won't be helping! She will be able to work things out much quicker (including you, and how to push your buttons unfortunately!) and her brain may be ahead of her emotions. DD was like this (in fact still is sometimes, although we seem to have short periods of it just every now and then these days) and sometimes, I think she is struggling like my hormonal teens! It seems like her brain wants to do things, and thinks things, that the rest of her is not mature enough to deal with. Does that make sense? I will try and rephrase if it doesn't!

It is very, very hard but could you reward your son if he helps out around the house, but definitely not your daughter if she refuses. You would have to watch out for recriminations aginst him to start with but she may just get the message if she sees him being rewarded for doing things right, rather than her being punished for doing things wrong.

I don't want to criticise you because I know what you are going through and how much easier it is to sit here and come up with ideas, but you really do have to stop rewarding them together. They are seperate and HAVE to be treated as such.

My other thought is to perhaps give her a bit more independence. I don't know if she has to wear a uniform or not, but dd loves to choose her own clothes. When she was at nursery, she had all suitable clothes in one drawer and she chose what she wanted from that. It may work as intelligence goes hand in hand with wanting to make their own decisions!

Someone has said about telling them you don't understand whining - that works with dd too. I refuse to speak to her until I can understand and if she starts to whine, I say, "you're whining (her name)" and it's taken a while but she now immediately changes pitch. She also responds to being told I am feeling sad at her behaviour - at this age they are centre of their own little universe and really do think the world revolves around them - it can do them good to be reminded how they affect others every now and again.

As for spending time with her, dd responds to me saying I am doing (housework or whatever) until such and such a time (I show her on the clock) and then I will spend time with you doing (whatever). You could even use an alarm clock?

As hard as it is - and I know it is - try and end the day with a big cuddle and let her go to sleep knowing you love her loads. Another 'easier' time to let her know how much you love her is to say it and give her an extra special big hug as she goes into nursery. It does seem that dd needs to know she is loved when she is like this - I think they can frighten themselves with their own emotions sometimes.

Also, she WILL be picking up on your feelings - the fact that she likes to be alone could indicate she is a sensitive child. Perhaps you could tell other people about why you love her, and all her good points, within her earshot, so she knows you care?

Lastly, I tell myself that it is better for dd to learn now than when she is a teen and can simply walk out! It is hell on earth but it will get better if you can stand your ground with her and stay consistent, honestly!

Good luck and keep going - you will sit and laugh with her about this one day, as I will with my dd!

Bestpud

lynzpower

Excelletn advice from Aerby there, which I wholehearedly agree.

One thing also to note is that if you are shouting and losing your rag ( i know its not easy not to btw, i can sense the frustration) this is how she learns to communicate.

Jo uses a low firm voice ( no shouting)

In the trampoline incident, I would have warned her, then when the punch came, taken her without warning and put her on the naughty step for 4 mins.say " i put you on the naughty step becuase i didnt like your behaviour, when you hit your brother, its not acceptable behaviour and its naughty" If she is talking/ arguing ignore her. After 4 mins, go back kneel down on her level and say, do you remember why you are put here? Its bacuse you hit your brother & its not acceptable. I want you to say sorry" say sorry, have a hug and then go on and play nicely.

One very important thing jo does is distinguish that the bahviour is bnaughty adn not the child. instead of saying "you are naughty" "you are horrible" you can say "your BEHAVIOUR is horrible, you know not to hit your brother"

Hugs to you sugar, i know its not easy, but it sounds like she is needing attention, and negative attention is still attention no matter what.

xxx

gettingitsorted

Im having same sort of problems with my 7 year old daughter ,im at my wits end to infact the family unit as a whole has just about had enough ,she behaves fine at school although bossy,she is anjelic when at her fathers but at home its a nightmare ,just this morning she got up for school and i discovered she was covered in nail varnish so was the bed (she was sent to bed early lastnight for bad behaviour ,we have tried reward charts ,she had 6 months of therapy but was anjelic at the sessions ,tried outside interests as rewards but to no avail ,we get constant verbal abuse ,she lashes out at her other sibblings,my health visitor is no help at all ,and i dont know where to turn next .This has been going on since she was 2 years old .i couldnt list everything she does as it would take for ever and a day .

does anyone know or can make any suggestions of where we can get some sort of help?