Parking Penalty Appeal Information

dazco

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Your points about affordability are fair enough, but it's not over-zealous. If you overstay by one minute, you've over-stayed. End of story.

I can't understand why people seem to think there's any difference between over-staying one minute and over-staying half an hour - it's black and white. If you aren't sure how long you are going to be, you simply have to pay for an extra half hour or hour. If you choose to take the gamble, then you should take the penalty too.

Sterling advice from the consumer champion.

The OP posted a POSSIBLE loophole. If it works, great if it doesn`t what have you lost? The time it takes to write a letter? (the OP assumed most people on here would not need a lawyer to do this for them.)

And your advice? Pay the people because it says you should. Your piousness and bombastic attitude brings little bits of sick into my mouth and reminds me why I stopped posting on these boards.

If you have nothing to offer you can actually save time by not offering it.

JEG1965

As I understand the process you don’t NEED to involve legal representation and, if you have been issued with a penalty notice UNDER THE CONDITIONS I HAVE NOTED, you MAY be successful.

For the avoidance of doubt: I’m not encouraging anyone to engage costly legal advice. I certainly can’t assume responsibility for anyone who wishes to do so. However if someone wishes to challenge a penalty notice using the simple appeal process the method I used MAY be of help - even if supplementary to separate appeal reasons.

If you read the official blurb below I think you’ll find there’s nothing to be lost in trying – you’ll just pay the penalty due anyway if your appeal is unsuccessful (but watch the time limits which affect the penalty amount). I was successful and saved myself £60. For the sake of clarity I’ve detailed the circumstances which led to my contentious appeal as well.

The information immediately below is provided by the Parking Appeals Adjudication Service (U.R.L. cited) but check for regional differences on the webpage. Thereafter follows my personal account which might better illustrate the reason I decided to appeal.

Stage 1 – Objecting to the local council

‘If you want, you can contact the council immediately after you receive the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). You should aim to do this within 14 days of receiving the PCN if you want to preserve the right to pay at the discount rate. You will normally be asked to put your point in writing.
State your case clearly and simply. If you have evidence to support your claims such as receipts or witness statements, send these in. (We recommend that you always send copies only and hold on to the originals). The council will write back, either accepting or rejecting your challenge. If you have written within 14 days of receiving the PCN and the council reject your challenge, you should be offered the chance to pay at the discounted rate.’

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/challengePCN.asp

What happened to me:
Late 2006 I suffered a painful back spasm. These are really debilitating. I couldn’t work that day because of it (I’m a gardener). I usually leave for work before the parking restrictions come into effect in my street. Because of my sore back I couldn’t get to my car in time to move it (as I knew I had to in order to avoid a fine). By the time I got there I had my first ticket. I drove to a chemist to collect prescription painkillers for my back. I parked in a public parking bay and paid for what I thought was enough time to get to the chemist and return using whatever coins had been handy – mostly small change from my ‘small change tin’.

The chemist was busy and I was effectively making a snail’s pace on my return. As I turned a corner into the road where I’d parked I saw a warden at my car. I called out to him to attract his attention. Some people right beside him (I think they were passing workmen) heard me and were trying to draw his attention to my calls. Nonetheless he continued issuing the ticket. By the time I eventually got there I spent a couple of fruitless minutes trying to plead with him to show me some discretion. He said that, as he’d started, he couldn’t stop. I wasn’t even rude to him I just gave up and drove off. So I got two tickets at £30 each within the space of 1 hour because of my back spasm.

Now I later checked the time the ticket was issued. It was issued 6 minutes past the expiry time. At the moment I first called to attract the enforcer’s attention I suspect my ticket had overrun by perhaps only one minute. When I later discovered that the expiry time had been calculated from the moment I put my first coin in – not when the machine issued the voucher – that one minute became VERY important. IT HAD DEVELOPED INTO A QUESTION OF PRINCIPLE AND FAIRNESS.

I contacted the Council’s traffic department to see if the circumstances of my back pain might allow any scope for appeal. The person I spoke to was actually really sympathetic and explained that the first ticket would certainly be revoked if the street name had been spelt incorrectly. He also thought that, by providing evidence from my G.P. concerning my back, I would have the second penalty waived too. Importantly he told me that I must submit my appeal within the requisite time (I think 14 days). I did ALL this and, thankfully, asked for a photocopy which was date stamped by the Council.
The importance for being within the requisite time was that the penalty amount of £30 was thereby fixed – even if my appeal failed. So I had nothing to lose.

My appeal was accepted for the first ticket with the misspelling but was turned down for the second ticket. And, because I’d submitted the appeal after(?) the requisite time, I’d lost my right to pay £30 and was to be charged £60! They later apologized for doubling the charge by mistake. They’d looked at the date when my appeal was processed rather than the date it was submitted.

Their response noted that there were only three reasons a warden could use discretion. These were (i) where a doctor was on an emergency call; (ii) a vehicle has broken down and the owner has notified the council and; (iii) if I recall correctly, the motorist has suffered a heart attack etc. (Incidentally a mere three grounds are not what I’d call true ‘discretion’).

The very next time I bought a parking voucher I used 5p pieces in – I admit – a pretty feeble attempt to get my revenge on what I thought was a heartless council. I would make sure they got my 5p pieces rather than pound coins! But because I did that, with the extra time involved, I noticed that the expiry time was a couple of minutes less than I’d anticipated.
I expected that the expiry time would be calculated from the moment I pressed the ‘accept’ button. I checked this with other machines the next couple of times I bought a voucher and found that they were all charging me for the privilege of making payment. Now I don’t think that’s lawful let alone fair.

So I contacted the head of the council’s parking department and suggested that this might mean the machines were operating under an illegality – one of the acceptable grounds of appeal is that the penalty has been issued unlawfully. He was quite reasonable but argued that the wardens gave a discretionary 5 minutes grace before issuing a ticket; so the minute or so difference wouldn’t matter. However I persisted with the principle of fairness under a contractual analysis argument and presented that in a second appeal. This time my appeal was successful BUT the council said the second penalty had been waived because the council had found a flaw in the attendant’s procedure. They also said they’d review the operating system of the machines in light of my comments regarding the contractual analysis. On that vital issue I’d referred them to a text on the law of contract in Scotland written by two eminent law professors.

Now perhaps they did find a flaw in the attendant’s procedure BUT THEY MISSED THAT IN MY FIRST APPEAL. So I’m hoping someone will be able to use the same method employing this contractual analysis to avert a similar unfairness in similar circumstances. I don’t think there’s any risk but, just to be clear, I can’t assume any responsibility for the financial losses of others in employing this approach.

So, if you wish, try this method in that knowledge IF your parking voucher issuing machine is operating in the same unfair manner and you’ve received a penalty - especially if just by the skin of your teeth.

In the meantime I’m trying to research further on the point and hope, at least, to pinpoint the moment at which the contract is formed which is, indeed, at the heart of my argument – as is the principle of fairness.

Believe me, though I'm trying to help, I'm no philosopher - I can't tell Marx from my elbow.

dazco

JEG1965 wrote: »

As I understand the process you don’t NEED to involve legal representation and, if you have been issued with a penalty notice UNDER THE CONDITIONS I HAVE NOTED, you MAY be successful.

For the avoidance of doubt: I’m not encouraging anyone to engage costly legal advice. I certainly can’t assume responsibility for anyone who wishes to do so. However if someone wishes to challenge a penalty notice using the simple appeal process the method I used MAY be of help - even if supplementary to separate appeal reasons.

If you read the official blurb below I think you’ll find there’s nothing to be lost in trying – you’ll just pay the penalty due anyway if your appeal is unsuccessful (but watch the time limits which affect the penalty amount). I was successful and saved myself £60. For the sake of clarity I’ve detailed the circumstances which led to my contentious appeal as well.

The information immediately below is provided by the Parking Appeals Adjudication Service (U.R.L. cited) but check for regional differences on the webpage. Thereafter follows my personal account which might better illustrate the reason I decided to appeal.

Stage 1 – Objecting to the local council

‘If you want, you can contact the council immediately after you receive the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). You should aim to do this within 14 days of receiving the PCN if you want to preserve the right to pay at the discount rate. You will normally be asked to put your point in writing.
State your case clearly and simply. If you have evidence to support your claims such as receipts or witness statements, send these in. (We recommend that you always send copies only and hold on to the originals). The council will write back, either accepting or rejecting your challenge. If you have written within 14 days of receiving the PCN and the council reject your challenge, you should be offered the chance to pay at the discounted rate.’

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/challengePCN.asp

What happened to me:
Late 2006 I suffered a painful back spasm. These are really debilitating. I couldn’t work that day because of it (I’m a gardener). I usually leave for work before the parking restrictions come into effect in my street. Because of my sore back I couldn’t get to my car in time to move it (as I knew I had to in order to avoid a fine). By the time I got there I had my first ticket. I drove to a chemist to collect prescription painkillers for my back. I parked in a public parking bay and paid for what I thought was enough time to get to the chemist and return using whatever coins had been handy – mostly small change from my ‘small change tin’.

The chemist was busy and I was effectively making a snail’s pace on my return. As I turned a corner into the road where I’d parked I saw a warden at my car. I called out to him to attract his attention. Some people right beside him (I think they were passing workmen) heard me and were trying to draw his attention to my calls. Nonetheless he continued issuing the ticket. By the time I eventually got there I spent a couple of fruitless minutes trying to plead with him to show me some discretion. He said that, as he’d started, he couldn’t stop. I wasn’t even rude to him I just gave up and drove off. So I got two tickets at £30 each within the space of 1 hour because of my back spasm.

Now I later checked the time the ticket was issued. It was issued 6 minutes past the expiry time. At the moment I first called to attract the enforcer’s attention I suspect my ticket had overrun by perhaps only one minute. When I later discovered that the expiry time had been calculated from the moment I put my first coin in – not when the machine issued the voucher – that one minute became VERY important. IT HAD DEVELOPED INTO A QUESTION OF PRINCIPLE AND FAIRNESS.

I contacted the Council’s traffic department to see if the circumstances of my back pain might allow any scope for appeal. The person I spoke to was actually really sympathetic and explained that the first ticket would certainly be revoked if the street name had been spelt incorrectly. He also thought that, by providing evidence from my G.P. concerning my back, I would have the second penalty waived too. Importantly he told me that I must submit my appeal within the requisite time (I think 14 days). I did ALL this and, thankfully, asked for a photocopy which was date stamped by the Council.
The importance for being within the requisite time was that the penalty amount of £30 was thereby fixed – even if my appeal failed. So I had nothing to lose.

My appeal was accepted for the first ticket with the misspelling but was turned down for the second ticket. And, because I’d submitted the appeal after(?) the requisite time, I’d lost my right to pay £30 and was to be charged £60! They later apologized for doubling the charge by mistake. They’d looked at the date when my appeal was processed rather than the date it was submitted.

Their response noted that there were only three reasons a warden could use discretion. These were (i) where a doctor was on an emergency call; (ii) a vehicle has broken down and the owner has notified the council and; (iii) if I recall correctly, the motorist has suffered a heart attack etc. (Incidentally a mere three grounds are not what I’d call true ‘discretion’).

The very next time I bought a parking voucher I used 5p pieces in – I admit – a pretty feeble attempt to get my revenge on what I thought was a heartless council. I would make sure they got my 5p pieces rather than pound coins! But because I did that, with the extra time involved, I noticed that the expiry time was a couple of minutes less than I’d anticipated.
I expected that the expiry time would be calculated from the moment I pressed the ‘accept’ button. I checked this with other machines the next couple of times I bought a voucher and found that they were all charging me for the privilege of making payment. Now I don’t think that’s lawful let alone fair.

So I contacted the head of the council’s parking department and suggested that this might mean the machines were operating under an illegality – one of the acceptable grounds of appeal is that the penalty has been issued unlawfully. He was quite reasonable but argued that the wardens gave a discretionary 5 minutes grace before issuing a ticket; so the minute or so difference wouldn’t matter. However I persisted with the principle of fairness under a contractual analysis argument and presented that in a second appeal. This time my appeal was successful BUT the council said the second penalty had been waived because the council had found a flaw in the attendant’s procedure. They also said they’d review the operating system of the machines in light of my comments regarding the contractual analysis. On that vital issue I’d referred them to a text on the law of contract in Scotland written by two eminent law professors.

Now perhaps they did find a flaw in the attendant’s procedure BUT THEY MISSED THAT IN MY FIRST APPEAL. So I’m hoping someone will be able to use the same method employing this contractual analysis to avert a similar unfairness in similar circumstances. I don’t think there’s any risk but, just to be clear, I can’t assume any responsibility for the financial losses of others in employing this approach.

So, if you wish, try this method in that knowledge IF your parking voucher issuing machine is operating in the same unfair manner and you’ve received a penalty - especially if just by the skin of your teeth.

In the meantime I’m trying to research further on the point and hope, at least, to pinpoint the moment at which the contract is formed which is, indeed, at the heart of my argument – as is the principle of fairness.

Believe me, though I'm trying to help, I'm no philosopher - I can't tell Marx from my elbow.

Yeah! what he said:rolleyes:

velocity_boy

councils should provide free parking on public owned car parks as a matter of civic duty- our land, our right to park on it

dazco

velocity_boy wrote: »

councils should provide free parking on public owned car parks as a matter of civic duty- our land, our right to park on it

You cannot say that on here mate. You will get every tofu eating, carrot crunching, guardian reading, car hating, propaganda believing, do-gooder opposing you.

And all the people with normal thoughts will not post, therefore giving the illusion that the soft !!!!! bleeding heart liberals are in the majority.

And they love that.

mpython

dazco wrote: »

You cannot say that on here mate........

And all the people with normal thoughts will not post, ........

I beg to differ - open, informed debate makes this a great forum. Even the OP now says his suggestion "may" save people money but no concrete evidence to date

Have you ever considered that maybe its your views that are the ones in the minority?

MarkyMarkD

dazco wrote: »

Sterling advice from the consumer champion.

The OP posted a POSSIBLE loophole. If it works, great if it doesn`t what have you lost? The time it takes to write a letter? (the OP assumed most people on here would not need a lawyer to do this for them.)

And your advice? Pay the people because it says you should. Your piousness and bombastic attitude brings little bits of sick into my mouth and reminds me why I stopped posting on these boards.

If you have nothing to offer you can actually save time by not offering it.

I don't claim to be a consumer champion.

In my posts I attempt to bring a bit of commercial reality and moral realism into some of the nonsense that people write on these boards.

If people attempt to produce ludicrous reasons why they shouldn't pay amounts of money that they owe, then I'll tell them why their ludicrous reasons ARE ludicrous either legally or morally.

Discussion boards are very dull indeed if all they contain is lots of people who agree with each other.

If you find the raising of legal and moral objections to dubious money-making/saving schemes, then ignore my posts.

And on the specific issue of parking in council provided parking spaces/car parks, there isn't even a logical "them and us" viewpoint - THEM is the same as US. Council parking charges exist for the benefit of the local community (where they generate net revenue) or to make sure that parking is available to all (where demand exceeds supply - by reducing demand because the charges deter those who don't really need to park).

dazco

mpython wrote: »

I beg to differ - open, informed debate makes this a great forum. Even the OP now says his suggestion "may" save people money but no concrete evidence to date

Have you ever considered that maybe its your views that are the ones in the minority?

No, I have never considered it. MOST people I know would begrudge giving the council £30 for parking one minute over.

In fact the only people I know who feel it is a wonderful thing are you and your girlfriend markymarkymarkymarky.

mpython

dazco wrote: »

No, I have never considered it.

Speaks volumes

dazco wrote: »

MOST people I know would begrudge giving the council £30 for parking one minute over.

I wouldn't be happy or joyous to give the council money either, I have successfully challenged an incorrectly issued ticket and paid up on another occasion when I was i the wrong. I accept the consequences of my actions and

dazco wrote: »

In fact the only people I know who feel it is a wonderful thing are you and your girlfriend markymarkymarkymarky.

I have never said it is a wonderful thing, & MarkyMarkD is not my girlfriend. You appear to have a gift of misinterpreting & misrepresenting what people are saying, & clearly, your social circle is limited to 'like' minded individuals.

Perhaps you could advise us all how we can avoid/ challenge parking fines with a reasonable chance of success.

mpython

dazco wrote: »

LOL :rotfl: :T
......The OP used this to get his ticket revoked, did you actually read this.....

Clearly you didn't.

The OP said he appealed and the ticket was cancelled. The OP did not say it was cancelled because of the arguement of coin machines time clocks. I quote from post #1

"Edinburgh City Council waived my penalty charge on the grounds that the warden had made an error in processing the ticket."