Parking Penalty Appeal Information

mpython

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

The OP, of course - not you at all mpython. I was actually agreeing with you. Sorry for not being clearer - and I've amended #18 to clarify.

Thanks, I was probably being oversensitive.

If the contract is only entered into when all the money is put into the machine, then, in theory, you could just park, put in one 5p coin and then just wait & wait (pain for everyone else though) and not pay any more until you felt like it and the company couldn't fine you for parking on their land.

JEG1965

tylerboyo wrote: »

Under some law, unless the ticket is attached to your car, you cant be prosecuted. QUOTE]

This point was discussed in the last few weeks on Radio 4's 'Today' programme (which has a luseful listen again facility). It appears that a warden must indeed either affix the penalty notice to the windscreen or hand it to the driver for it to be effective. However the dicussion also noted the anomaly that drivers can be issued lawful tickets by post where an offence has been viewed on CCTV.

JEG1965

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Presumably you were paying with as many coins as possible in the hope of jamming the machine or filling it up, both of which would give you another excuse for not paying?

I think you are sounding dafter by the second, JEG1965.

I am a little surprised that what I posted as a helpful suggestion should be attracting a number of scathing replies. Indeed the above quoted response is actually defamatory as it carries an innuendo of intentional criminal damage.

If a vending machine accepts 5p pieces I am obviously entitled to pay with
5p pieces! Indeed this is useful way of spending small change. I am acutely conscious that this takes longer than £1 coins for example and so I always allow anyone behind me to go ahead of me. I'm not trying to jam machines or cause huge delays in queues. What I am trying - and apparently failing miserably - to do is to draw attention to something which is, in my opinion, not acceptable.

The law of contract exists to regulate commercial transactions. Though the law will not always intervene in some trifling issues - under the de minimis principle - sanctity of contract is of the greatest importance where outwardly small figures are concerned. An example will hopefully illustrate:

In a case before the European Court of Justice, the Belgian government imposed a tiny tax of some 0.03% on diamond imports from Africa. There motives were, they argued, altruistic as the levy would be paid to the diamond workers' welfare fund. However this tiny percentage levied on diamonds represented an enormous sum in total and served to protect the Belgian market. Consequently the ECJ said the tax was illegal. In an obiter statement they suggested that the government could use other - non-discriminatory - methods to assist the diamond workers' welfare fund. Surprise, surprise, the Belgian government never did!

Now, I suspect that the authors of the scathing posts so far might argue that the sums involved are different - even if they MIGHT concede that the principle is the same. However take a look at the revenue earned by local authorities from parking charges and then consider a percentage of say 0.03%of consumer money which was deducted prior to the legal conclusion of the parking contract and you will have a significant sum.

mpython

JEG1965, are you saying, you can park in a Pay&Dispaly car park, and if you do not complete putting coins in the machine, you will not be prosecuted because you haven't completed 'agreeing' a contract?

JEG1965

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

JEG1965

Your argument about not getting the full time is complete rubbish.

With any pay and display car park, you park the car, and THEN you go and pay. So EVERY customer gets an amount of free time which they don't pay for.

If you are stupid, and choose to pay your £4 parking charge in 5p coins, so it take you five minutes to put them all in, that doesn't make any difference to the amount of parking time you get - you are ALREADY PARKED.

If the time started from the time the ticket is printed, you would get 5 minutes more FREE TIME but just because it starts when you start inserting coins doesn't make it unfair in the slightest.

I have discussed the issue of 'free time' with the head of department at Edinburgh Council. He concurs that, on the contrary, from the moment the vehicle is parked it is vulnerable to a penalty charge. He did say that parking attendants are SUPPOSED to check for a driver who may be at a machine before issuing a ticket but the point is that there is - LEGALLY - NO 'FREE TIME'. So all the more reason to make sure the consumer gets every penny's worth.

Again - regarding the assertion that my argument is complete rubbish - can I ask you if you would be happy if e.g. a petrol dispensing pump started charging from the moment you withdrew the nozzle rather than from the moment you press the dispensing trigger? Can you not see the similarity?

I'm very happy to engage in a constructive debate on this issue because I intend to pursue this matter with the Council in the hope of making a fairer deal for consumers. So if there are any counter-arguments I can refine my submission in light of these.

I apologise for referring to MarkyMark as Meletus, I see that you have many thank-you notes and so you must be a helpful person.

sarahg1969

If it's a PRIVATE parking ticket from a FREE car park, such as Aldi or Tesco, don't pay it. You do not need to pay it.

It's an invoice, not a fine, and only the driver can be a party to that contract.

The registered keeper is under no obligation to provide details of the driver.

Just tell the company to write to the driver, and do not provide his/her details.

And don't forget to tell them that if they contact you again, you will report them to the police under the Protection from Harassment Act.

No need to look for loopholes at all.

If you get ticketed by a warden, either drive off so the ticket cannot be served, or, if you have a passenger in the car with you, get into the driver's seat, and ask your passenger to get out of the car and collect the ticket. In that instance, it has not been served because it must be either handed to the person in charge of the vehicle (ie YOU the driver) or placed ON the vehicle. Then, your passenger, in view of the warden, can pop it into the nearest bin.

Sarah

mpython

JEG1975, thanks for the clarification. So there is no 'free time' once you have parked. Therefore, purchasing a fixed period of time by way of a pay&display machine means that the time dispalyed on the ticket (whether timed to co-incide with the first or last coin) will always equal (if you're incredibly quick to put coins in the machine) or exceed the time purchased. It is reasonable then, for the time printed on the ticket to be the time taken when deciding whether to issue a ticket or not.

Not sure the petrol pump analogy really helps as the thing you are buying is different, i.e. petrol is measured in volume, car parking in time (though some mercedes drivers don't seem to be able to park within just the lines! - joke).

JEG1965

I should stress that the method I used is effective under Scots law being an appeal against Edinburgh City Council. English contract law differs from that in Scotland because England has the element of 'consideration' which might negate this approach.

I would be delighted if someone could let me know whether this is the case or not.

If the same contactual analysis does apply in England (& Wales of course) then the same avenue for appeal is available provided the parking voucher machines operate in the same fashion i.e. the expiry time is calculated starting from the moment you put your first coin in rather than when you press the accept button to receive your parking voucher.

I am eagerly awaiting a response from Edinburgh City Council regarding the manner in which their machines issue vouchers in light of my appeal. They said they'd review the system but I haven't heard anything back as yet.

The position (mentioned above by sarahg) regarding private car parks, such as those for supermarket customers, is, as sarashg notes, distinct from the position of public roads. I understand that there are unscrupulous private companies profiteering from their position controlling such private parking space. It appears that the position in England is now the same as Scotland in that clamping on private land is unlawful. This was ruled to be extortion in a Scottish court case a number of years ago. Clamping is still lawful for untaxed vehicles though.

My grouch is with the private companies who are contracted by local authorities to patrol PUBLIC parking spaces. There appears to be a growing body of evidence that many of these companies offer their parking attendants incentives and/or require minimum ticketing quotas. This is a recipe for over-zealous and inappropriate application of rules. This can be contrasted with the much more acceptable commonsense approach adopted by police traffic wardens who, importantly, do not operate under any inducement.

As regards supermarkets, I do have an issue with price manipulation applied to some outwardly money-saving offers; but that's for another day!

MillieT

I would just like to thank JEG1965 for trying to HELP other people to save money which is what this site is all about. Some local authorities are unneccessarily greedy when it comes to cars. It's always the honest, hard working person with not a lot of extra cash who suffers most in situations like this. I would never deliberately stay overtime in a parking place, but if something unavoidable had occurred to prevent me returning in time you bet I would have a go at contesting it using the illegal contract theme.

MarkyMarkD

Thanks for noting my existing level of thanks, JEG1965 (if that makes sense).

I still don't see what your point is about free time.

I am sure that it's correct that legally you are required to buy a ticket immediately upon arrival and there is no legal entitlement to free time. But your idea that you are somehow being penalised for paying slowly is bosh.

Example:

Mr MMD and Mr JEG arrive at the same time in a car park with 2 machines: 0900.

Mr MMD goes straight to the machine, pays with the bare minimum number of coins and buys a ticket which is timed at 0901 and ends at 1201. He's got 1 minute of free time.

Mr JEG goes straight to the machine and pays £3 using 60 5p coins. It takes him two minutes to do this (probably longer if some of them are rejected a few times). At many types of machine, he would get a ticket timed at 0903 and ending at 1203 and hence 3 minutes of free time, but at the particular type of machine he refers to he gets a ticket timed at 0901 when he arrives at the machine and ending at 1201. So he also gets 1 minute of free time.

Mr MMD and Mr JEG both get exactly the same free time of 1 minute, which is 1 minute more than they are both legally entitled to.

So, what the heck are you moaning about?

All the stuff about when a contract is formed is irrelevant. The contract is formed when you park, not when you pay.