PAC code trap with 3, advice needed

roaming_man

Hi,
our family has three mobile phones all on contract with 3 mobile. To say it has been an unhappy relationship is to put it mildly, lots of reception issues etc. Anyway, knowing that the two-year contract would soon be at an end we were always going to be jumping with our feet.
In a conversation with the customer services a couple of months ago they confirmed the contracts were due to end on 09 November. They said that if I didn't wish to continue contract past that date they would require 30 days notice.

Well, having had previous problems dealing with the slippery outfit t they are I thought I would make sure I do this by the book. Therefore I sent a recorded delivery letter to the customer services Department in Glasgow that stated I would not be renewing the contract past 09 November. I also said that I would be contacting them in due course for the PAC codes (I was going abroad and couldn't use them immediately).

The response to this was the normal calls from the retention teams asking why I was so unhappy and didn't want to stay with them, they seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that we have logged over 40 complaints over our service reception.

Fast forward to yesterday, phoned them up for the PAC codes, only to be told that if they were to give me the PAC codes, then that would extend my contract for another 30 days, bear in mind that on three contracts this is no laughing matter. Their argument for this is that because the PAC code is valid for 30 days, even if it were to be used before the end of the contract (as it would be) they still have the right to charge another 30 days rental.
I queried this with Ofcom, initial response was "no they can't do that." Then went to do some further checking and the final answer was yes apparently they can, said without any great conviction I must say.

went on to the 3 forum and queried this and got the following reply from a moderator,

"
Yes, request your PAC would re-set your 30 days notice as you are giving another notice term."

Checked their code of practice and it has this to say about number portability and PAC codes.

"If you are a Three customer and you want to move your number to another service provider, you should call us and ask for a PAC. Your PAC will be valid for 30 calendar days. You'll need to give your PAC to your new service provider to move your number to that network. If you don't use your PAC within those 30 days, you'll continue to receive and be charged for services from Three."

There is no mention there that requesting a PAC code inside the last 30 days of your contract will reset the contract for another 30 days.

Basically, I think I'm being turned over, any advice gratefully received.

grumbler

roaming_man wrote: »

...
Fast forward to yesterday, phoned them up for the PAC codes, only to be told that if they were to give me the PAC codes, then that would extend my contract for another 30 days, bear in mind that on three contracts this is no laughing matter.

They are pulling a fast one. Ask them to quote their T&C saying this.

Their argument for this is that because the PAC code is valid for 30 days, even if it were to be used before the end of the contract (as it would be) they still have the right to charge another 30 days rental.

Their 'argument' is flawed. Again, they can only do this if the T&C say so.

I queried this with Ofcom, initial response was "no they can't do that." Then went to do some further checking and the final answer was yes apparently they can, said without any great conviction I must say.

Ofcom is probably the most incompetent 'Of...' body and is often called Ofcon for a reason. Their regulations are full of contradictions. Luckily, they are not the court of the last resort in this country.

I would pay (under protest) what '3' want, then claim this back (plus fees and for the trouble) through a small claims court on principle. The court will look into the T&C and any contradiction in regulations will be in your favour. That said, it's most likely that '3' will settle before the court.

£note

The easiest way I've found to deal with leaving a network is to call 30 days before the end of your minimum term and give the requisite 30 days notice, at the same time ask for the number to be transferred to PAYG at the end of this notice period. At the end of the notice period and when your number has been changed to PAYG simply call and ask for your PAC, job done.

Buzby

What you describe is sharp practice, but then other networks slice it differently. Orange (for example) will issue you a PAC BUT if they upsell you to a PAYG SIM and you do not register it (by USING the PAC), your contract continues. The reasoning? They don't want you to 'lose' your number, and this protects you.

For them to assume the PAC somehow re-sets the written notice you have previously given is simply nonsense, and to avoid this when you write to give your notice you ask for your PAC at the same time. Clearly you didn't know this, but if the number is valuable to you you need to prevent it being lost, as this can easily happen.

A valuable lesson - but it is worthwhile finding these wriggles in advance of any departure!

grumbler

Buzby wrote: »

Orange (for example) will issue you a PAC BUT if they upsell you to a PAYG SIM and you do not register it (by USING the PAC), your contract continues.

Wrong. At Orange it's either PAC that you have to use or a PAYG sim that you have to activate, not both.

diamonds

3 used to have a automated PAC request in the menu, is it gone ?

roaming_man

Many thanks for replies.

Several points.

The point about Orange and their PAC procedure, well if I had been with Orange I doubt that the problem would have arisen. Their procedures are very clearly laid out and very easy to find.

" As a customer of Orange we give you the opportunity to keep your mobile number if you decide to leave us. You will have to request your PAC at the same time you give us your notice that you will be leaving Orange "

On the other hand, you can search 3 mobile site and you simply will not find this information. It just is not there, in fact, a keyword search under PAC will only bring up a single entry on how to bring your number to 3.

If you happen to be checking, as I did, about ending your contract with 3, you are simply requested to call customer services. There is no more information than that, and of course they will just tell you what they want to tell you.

As Grumbler pointed out,

" They are pulling a fast one. Ask them to quote their T&C saying this. "

I have checked their T&C, its here,

(Edit. Sorry but as a new user, I was not allowed to post the link)

Once again you would search in vain for any mention of the PAC code. And this is the section that deals with the ending of the contract;

(b) You can end the agreement during your Minimum
Term (if you have one – this will be stated in your
Package) by giving notice to Three Customer
Services 30 days before the date you want to end the
agreement. However, you must pay us all the Charges
you owe, plus any Cancellation Fee for your Package
(as set out in the Price Guide).
(c) On 30 days’ notice, outside the Minimum Term.
You can end the agreement if your Package does
not contain a Minimum Term, or if you want to end
the agreement at the end of your Minimum Term
or any time after your Minimum Term has expired,
provided you give notice to Three Customer Services
at least 30 days before the date you want to end the
agreement. (A Cancellation Fee will not be charged.)

Clearly (c) is applicable to the circumstances I outlined in my original post and I fulfilled that condition 100%, in writing, by recorded delivery, five weeks before the ending of the contract.

So to sum up, there is no mention of the PAC code in the contract, no mention of it on their website.

In addition to that, it is clear from my letter that I am obviously unaware of the fact that the PAC code needs to be requested at the same time as the cancellation of the contract,

" I understand that the contracts end on 10 November and I wish to give you 30 days notice that I will not be continuing the contracts past that date.

I will be contacting you for PAC codes at a later date. "

Now I had the customer services team phoning me after the receipt of that letter so they were fully aware of the fact that I was in the dark about this. If at that time they had chose to inform me of their "procedures" it simply would not have been a problem because I had sent the letter in sufficient time and was still outside the 30 day period.

Given all that, I think I would certainly go with grumblers advice, pay what they require (don't want any marks on my credit record) and then take them to the Small Claims Court and at that stage I will certainly be looking into some sort of recompense for the problems this has caused me.

Once again thanks for the advice, hope this might help somebody else and I will certainly return to let everyone know the outcome.

grumbler

roaming_man wrote: »

...The point about Orange and their PAC procedure.... Their procedures are very clearly laid out and very easy to find.

" As a customer of Orange we give you the opportunity to keep your mobile number if you decide to leave us. You will have to request your PAC at the same time you give us your notice that you will be leaving Orange "

I have to disagree. They do make it more clear than '3', but again, it's not what the T&C say.
The T&C say: "You may terminate your Contract to expire at anytime after the Minimum Term by giving us at least one month's notice." PAC lasts for 30 days. What if you give a notice 2 months before the min term ends, then request a PAC 2 weeks before the end? Is giving exactly 30 day notice the only option to leave with your number end without any charges?

tentimes

3 just got me with the same thing. I argued with them and they outright refused.

I am going to do the small claims court thing and add costs to it at £10/hour for the time it takes me to prepare the case.

Guys_Dad

I posted this link http://www.paccodes.co.uk on another thread and this may explain how PAC codes and cancellation work.

Try the switch option on the site from 3 to wherever you planned to move.

The appropriate paragraph reads

It is important that you do not cancel your mobile phone contract with your current provider, Three, until you have your PAC code and have given this to your new mobile phone network provider, or you may not be able to transfer your number across and may also incur a connection fee with the new network

roaming_man

Update. 3 days before end of contract I called them to say I wanted the PAC codes. Guy at the other end offered me another option, wait till the contract finished and they would give me the codes for free. Found this one hard to work out, why were they turning down money ?? For whatever reason he managed to convince me....or maybe not....I dunno but we had already decided that our numbers were so spam inundated of late that maybe a new number was no bad thing. Anyway, called up the day it expired and was told it would take 48 hours, not happy.
However 2 days later called them up, codes were waiting and they worked :j
I know this way might not suit everyone, in our situation with 3 X charges on numbers we were not over concerned about losing, it was Ok for us.
Free at last :j
Now with giff gaff, fine for us as we can just walk away. Strange thing is....no spam texts (yet!)and its been a week. Most odd.