Simple list of tariffs

TIMMY85

steve-L wrote: »

Cheapest First? that all depends on the usage and accuracy of their calculations even if I knew what energy I'd use.
I am not interested in their calculations of what is cheapest.
...
Regardless of this how can I trust their calculations when I can't see their working?????


What I need to know are the kWh costs of ALL possible tariffs for every supplier for my area. I can do this supplier by supplier but not tariff by supplier or I end up with having to go to hundreds of pages to get the information to put into my model.

I can't see why the Tiered tariffs would be cheaper for anyone?
If they were, why would the energy companies be listing them that way? There might be a few instances where they might be but I'm happy to miss them out. The tiered charges are just a way of obfuscating the standing charge anyway and penalising low usage customers at the same time. If the regulator had any teeth it would force them to show the tier1 as a standing charge.

I am not looking at a simple case of switching but at reducing my energy bill overall.

This involves a lot of other variables such as replacing halogen spots with LED or ripping out the fittings and fitting compact fluorescents... (of which I have a box full), changing the fridge freezer and a lot of other variables.

I have 36 50W 12v Halogens ... how many should I replace with 240v LED's? (including buying GU10 connectors to replace the MR16's) ... and how many do I leave based on I have 38 12v Halogen bulbs and I am only renting for 2 years...???

Is it worth buying a new fridge freezer?

To do this I need the electricity prices available to me and as this is potentially tied to my gas supplier I need that as well.

1) You should do a comparison based on your consumption. You say 'If I knew what it was'...find out.

2) If you use 16,000 kwh of gas with EDF and it costs £1000 but with nPower the same usage costs £900, does it matter how the bill is structured? It is £100 cheaper. I always compare on annual cost based on consumption.

3) Ofgems proposal to make things simpler will probably not work.

BG may have a tariff with a standing charge of 10p per day and a unit rate of 4p per unit.

EDF then may have a tariff with a standing charge of 9p per day and a unit rate of 5p per unit.

Which is cheaper? Well....that will depend on usage.

4) Standing charges do not benefit lower users of energy. If my standing charge is 10p per day I will pay £36.50 per year if I use no gas, 1000 kWh of gas or 30,000 kWh of gas.

On a tiered price if I use no gas I pay ZERO.

5) You will not get quotes based on future energy reductions as these cannot be known in advance.

Should you replace your fridge? Well, if your fridge is broken then yes. If you can afford an energy efficient fridge then buy the most efficient one. Should you buy a new fridge because you may reduce your energy bill....no.

Compare on what has happened in the past...like for like...if you use less in the future you will pay less.

HappyMJ

steve-L wrote: »

My present calculations show switching the high use 50W halogens will pay back faster than a year.

I can buy 20 4.5W LED's for £64 + GU10 cabling for £12 (£76)
I then need to replace the 3x6W CFL with 3x12W in the floor lamp to add the lost lumens from the Halogen to 4.5W LED but I already have these.

UP = £0.115 (11.5p/kWh)
Bulbs = 20
kW-Hal = 0.05 (50W)
kW-Led = 0.0045 (4.5W)
Hr_day=8
Days/Yr = 360

0.0115x20x8x360x(0.05-0.0045) = £301.392/yr - £76 (bulb and GU10 cost) = £225.392/yr saving....

Or payback time = about 90 days (a quarter)
In reality I will need to add 3x 12w CFL in the lounge floor lamp instead of the present 5W if I use the 4.5W LED's but these I already have.

I also need to burn more gas in winter as I am losing the heat generated by the halogens (1kWh) - 15% at best for their efficiency ratio for heat/light .....

Please show how you calculated


Did you calculate this? Or do you just believe it......????
This is the whole point.... I am developing a model to actually calculate it not rely on secret calculations on a price comparison site.

Should I just trust statements like the ROI being longer than 2 years?

Sorry, I don't trust any calculation I can't repeat myself because experience shows again and again that people can't or are unwilling to do basic maths. This is how the energy companies (not to mention mobile phone networks and pretty much everyone else) manage to rip off the public

Now I have to go and reclaim my PPI payment.... oh wait.... I never had a PPI.... I wonder why?
Oh, I'll just go and pay off my credit card debt.... oops wait... in 25 years I have NEVER failed to pay my credit card off in full....

It is not rocket science... you just do the basic maths they taught at junior school.... its not even GCSE level maths....anyone can do it but first you have to get the numbers and write the equations....and mostly throw out any calculations made FOR YOU to show you how to switch.... (or not) or change your consumption profile.

20 lights on for 8 hours each night for 365 nights per year....turn some lights off. My whole electric bill isn't even that high and I have a light on or at most two and they are the good old incandescent inefficient 60W-75W bulbs....one maybe two rooms...plus electric heating and electric hot water...mostly at peak rate.

If you think you have a 90 day payback then change them. I wouldn't..but that is just my opinion. My maths tells me that changing my old bulbs isn't worth doing.

grahamc2003

Steve-l, Just wondering why you didn't do the maths before you bought 20x50W halogens you wanted to use for 8 hours each day?

It's a bit like thinking you're doing well when you stop beating your wife, when sensible people don't beat their wife in the first place.

I'm also a bit confused by the gu10 cabling in your calcs - no need for that, just replace gu10 halogens with gu10 leds, and make sure the leds are really bright enough and of the light quality you require, something the maths won't tell you. It's great if led technology these days is that for £3.20 you can get a near 50W halogen quality - have you actually seen the light from the leds you propose to check?

steve-L

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Steve-l, Just wondering why you didn't do the maths before you bought 20x50W halogens you wanted to use for 8 hours each day?

It's a bit like thinking you're doing well when you stop beating your wife, when sensible people don't beat their wife in the first place.

I'm also a bit confused by the gu10 cabling in your calcs - no need for that, just replace gu10 halogens with gu10 leds, and make sure the leds are really bright enough and of the light quality you require, something the maths won't tell you. It's great if led technology these days is that for £3.20 you can get a near 50W halogen quality - have you actually seen the light from the leds you propose to check?

My current Halogens are 50W/12v ... hence they have a MR16 connector which is much thinner (and not safe for 240v)

The transformers are forever tripping or tripping the fuses tripping or the bulbs going such that when we moved in only 1/2 the lights in the house were actually working.

My initial thought was to change them for 240v replacements but if I'm doing that then I looked into the LED spots as well.

I bought 10 for £32.50......I have purchased a single GU10 connector from my local store for testing purposes (£2.95 or so) so I can take off the transformers and put in 240v. (I am getting 20x connectors over ebay for 1/4 of the unit price).

So far the ebay LED's seem OK, not quite the same power output as the 50W Halogen's but that was probably too much anyway!
For the lounge I'm supplementing this with a floor lamp of CFL's.
I have a big box of CFL's (from previous houses) that are currently an unused asset so I'm happy to be able to use some...

What I don't know yet is how long they will last.... the old 12v Halogens never seem to last, I always seem to be changing one...

8 hours might be on the high side but even at 4 hours that's 1/2 year for ROI. (Plus I have a asset in the bulbs themselves assuming they last the advertised hours)

steve-L

TIMMY85 wrote: »

1) You should do a comparison based on your consumption. You say 'If I knew what it was'...find out.

How? I can calculate what electric appliances use but I have only moved in for a month. Is it possible to ask the old supplier for the previous years usage?

2) If you use 16,000 kwh of gas with EDF and it costs £1000 but with nPower the same usage costs £900, does it matter how the bill is structured? It is £100 cheaper. I always compare on annual cost based on consumption.

5) You will not get quotes based on future energy reductions as these cannot be known in advance.

Yes but I can get a fixed price until 2014 or 1 year depending on supplier. However I need to be able to compare like with like.

However, I agree, unless you are willing to check utility prices on a weekly basis the comparison sites are useless as the price might go up anyway...

The issue is that power supply is a low margin business, hence BG Group selling of its worldwide power supply and generation on 2010.
Ofgem/Govt. have tried to treat it like buying groceries so I can go to mysupermarket and find the prices for a 4 pack of Heinz baked beans in several supermarkets and then buy accordingly.

However the energy companies have wrapped this up in over-compexity by offering so many tariffs with different discounts and surcharges its almost impossible to compare plus they can then change prices at will once your being supplied.

It's like turning up at Asda having decided to buy my beans at Asda and then being charged for a bag (even though I don't want one) and a extra charge for packaging but then given a discount for it being Tuesday.... and a surcharge for paying by card.
Then it turns out the price at Tesco is cheaper as they don't charge me for the bag or credit card..???

3) Ofgems proposal to make things simpler will probably not work.
BG may have a tariff with a standing charge of 10p per day and a unit rate of 4p per unit.
EDF then may have a tariff with a standing charge of 9p per day and a unit rate of 5p per unit.

Which is cheaper? Well....that will depend on usage.

Yes but I have to first FIND that offer... and EDF might also have a tariff of 10p/d and 4p/unit.... as might other's.

However I should be able to make these calculations myself!
Why should I rely on the calculation of a comparison website?
Surely, if this freemarket approach is to work the utility companies should be forced to provide their current tariffs and we can all swap utility company's on a weekly basis?

4) Standing charges do not benefit lower users of energy. If my standing charge is 10p per day I will pay £36.50 per year if I use no gas, 1000 kWh of gas or 30,000 kWh of gas.

On a tiered price if I use no gas I pay ZERO.


Should you replace your fridge? Well, if your fridge is broken then yes. If you can afford an energy efficient fridge then buy the most efficient one. Should you buy a new fridge because you may reduce your energy bill....no.

Compare on what has happened in the past...like for like...if you use less in the future you will pay less.[/QUOTE]

My fridge is old and makes a lot of funny noises, this makes me think it's not so efficient as it once was. It also seems to change temperature, occasionally freezing and then ruining food....

steve-L

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Steve-l, Just wondering why you didn't do the maths before you bought 20x50W halogens you wanted to use for 8 hours each day?

I didn't buy them, they were in the rented house when I arrived

Before signing the contract I did consider the prices but I also had to balance this against a lot of other factors... many of these of a greater magnitude.

chattychappy

steve-L I'm totally with you on this thread. Apart from struggling with home energy, I also have a small office building and for commercial energy I find it even more difficult to get exact tariffs - often having to give phone numbers first, so some sales bloke can call. Always keen to tell me "how much I can save". But the point is, my usage is dynamic. I can set certain lights to come on and off, program the boiler, swap light bulbs etc. To some extent I can switch between electric heating and using gas. I can do the maths - the amounts involved are too high not to. I want to make a decision based on what is offered to me. All my other suppliers can quote me prices and I decide accordingly.

Yep, I have found by manually clicking through different sites I can get the information, but it's tedious. Often you end up finding there are fewer tariffs than meet the eye anyway. Ie the same combination will turn up twice - once based on DD and once based on non-DD where there is only a fixed difference.

I have no objection to the way these comparison sites offering these services this way to those that want them. But I would much rather go to the supplier's websites and get a raw price list.

(I have tried phoning them - but usually get passed around before going through the same silliness of being asked how much I'm using now before they can quote me so they "can be sure they have found the right tariff for me". How patronising!)

grahamc2003

steve-L wrote: »

My current Halogens are 50W/12v ... hence they have a MR16 connector which is much thinner (and not safe for 240v)

The transformers are forever tripping or tripping the fuses tripping or the bulbs going such that when we moved in only 1/2 the lights in the house were actually working.

My initial thought was to change them for 240v replacements but if I'm doing that then I looked into the LED spots as well.

I bought 10 for £32.50......I have purchased a single GU10 connector from my local store for testing purposes (£2.95 or so) so I can take off the transformers and put in 240v. (I am getting 20x connectors over ebay for 1/4 of the unit price).

So far the ebay LED's seem OK, not quite the same power output as the 50W Halogen's but that was probably too much anyway!
For the lounge I'm supplementing this with a floor lamp of CFL's.
I have a big box of CFL's (from previous houses) that are currently an unused asset so I'm happy to be able to use some...

What I don't know yet is how long they will last.... the old 12v Halogens never seem to last, I always seem to be changing one...

8 hours might be on the high side but even at 4 hours that's 1/2 year for ROI. (Plus I have a asset in the bulbs themselves assuming they last the advertised hours)

We've had a few gu10 leds fitted for a few years now - still going strong, and they are on and off several times per day running probably for 6 hours - I expect them to last for several years.

The first led gu10 I bought probably3 or 4 years ago was really cack, absolutely useless and not a replacement at all for anything. A couple of years ago I bought a couple more off ebay, the seller insisting the 4 x1W power leds in each light were as good as a 40W halogen. I'd say the ones I got were close, and excellent quality light, but not the brightness - they do try to mislead a little by concentrating the light into a narrowwer beam angle to get it very bright just in a smallish cone of light. But perfectly acceptable for our use, cost about £6 each (ebay, sent from china, much more expensive uk sourced) - maybe cheaper and better these days. I'd just say be careful buying a bunch of leds until you've actually got one in your hands to see if it meets your requirements - the quality of superficially similar leds varies enormously imv.

I agree on your central point about getting a simple (long!) list of the rates of all tariffs from all suppliers - I've posted before that it is impossible to do and is partly due to the confusion marketing suppliers prefer. Like you, I don't see the service comparison sites offer is anything like a simple list of rates, and I certainly don't fully put my faith in what they tell me my bills will be for any particular tariff. Having said that, the majority of people don't know what kWh is anyway, and all they want is an annual cost. (Leads me back to your bulbs - my brotherinlaw actually put in loads of 12v 50w halogens a couple of years ago reasoning they were low energy (being synonymous with low voltage). He's probably not alone with that misconception!.

steve-L

grahamc2003 wrote: »

We've had a few gu10 leds fitted for a few years now - still going strong, and they are on and off several times per day running probably for 6 hours - I expect them to last for several years.

The first led gu10 I bought probably3 or 4 years ago was really cack, absolutely useless and not a replacement at all for anything. A couple of years ago I bought a couple more off ebay, the seller insisting the 4 x1W power leds in each light were as good as a 40W halogen. I'd say the ones I got were close, and excellent quality light, but not the brightness - they do try to mislead a little by concentrating the light into a narrowwer beam angle to get it very bright just in a smallish cone of light. But perfectly acceptable for our use, cost about £6 each (ebay, sent from china, much more expensive uk sourced) - maybe cheaper and better these days. I'd just say be careful buying a bunch of leds until you've actually got one in your hands to see if it meets your requirements - the quality of superficially similar leds varies enormously imv.

Yes I am reasonably happy with the eBay ones I got, I only tested 1 out of the box but in various places. Its a 36 degree one so tighter than the Halogens but still not too bad floor to ceiling but not for under-cupboard to worktop (kitchen type)... the main thing seems to be that I need to add some more diffuse light about as well from CFL's. IKEA are also doing GU10 LED's and I bought a few to test. These are only 4.5W but again seem good but more expensive. I bought my early CFL's from IKEA (they were always way cheaper than most other sources) many years ago and many are still working!

I agree on your central point about getting a simple (long!) list of the rates of all tariffs from all suppliers - I've posted before that it is impossible to do and is partly due to the confusion marketing suppliers prefer. Like you, I don't see the service comparison sites offer is anything like a simple list of rates, and I certainly don't fully put my faith in what they tell me my bills will be for any particular tariff.

Yet they get this information from the utility suppliers.
To be honest, when has your estimated bill been close? (from the same supplier). I have moved several times and had estimates that have been +/- 20% or more of real use.

Having said that, the majority of people don't know what kWh is anyway, and all they want is an annual cost. (Leads me back to your bulbs - my brotherinlaw actually put in loads of 12v 50w halogens a couple of years ago reasoning they were low energy (being synonymous with low voltage). He's probably not alone with that misconception!.

..... there are two issues.
1) People who prefer to remain stupid/ignorant
2) A certain amount of deliberate over-complication by the energy companies and then lobbying that people don't understand.
The second one is what feeds the first!

Whereas I don't expect everyone to understand the actual measurement of a Watt [in terms of the physics definition] it shouldn't actually matter as these are the things we are paying for.
This is the same argument used by food companies about calories or grams of salt/sugar.

kWh is no different. Its the amount of heat or light generated regardless of the voltage or calorific value of the gas.

If people only understand that then its really not post GCSE level and shouldn't be beyond most people.

If they are willing to accept that then the voltage and amperage can be explained in terms of the speed and diameter of the pipe that delivers it. You can deliver the same amount of W with a lower speed but fatter pipe....

Non of this is rocket science ... but people have had this mystified just as they have with something like cooking.

The energy companies use examples like your brother-in-law (or my partner) to build a case that presenting this information is too complex for the majority of their customers and here is the real problem, a combination of people wanting to remain wilfully ignorant and the utility companies encouraging that.

My grandparents understood the different calorific value of coal vs wood even if they only expressed it in terms of a sack of coal would heat the house 10x longer than a similar sack of wood. (I'm not counting my parents since my father was a scientist but my grandfather was a builder and grandmother worked in the cotton mills)

If my builder grandfather understood in the age of coal the difference between bituminous coal,lignite and burning wood then it's no different in todays world of electricity to have similar people (the majority of their customers?) understand kWh and V and A.

steve-L

chattychappy wrote: »

steve-L I'm totally with you on this thread. Apart from struggling with home energy, I also have a small office building and for commercial energy I find it even more difficult to get exact tariffs - often having to give phone numbers first, so some sales bloke can call. Always keen to tell me "how much I can save". But the point is, my usage is dynamic. I can set certain lights to come on and off, program the boiler, swap light bulbs etc. To some extent I can switch between electric heating and using gas. I can do the maths - the amounts involved are too high not to. I want to make a decision based on what is offered to me. All my other suppliers can quote me prices and I decide accordingly.

Yep, I have found by manually clicking through different sites I can get the information, but it's tedious. Often you end up finding there are fewer tariffs than meet the eye anyway. Ie the same combination will turn up twice - once based on DD and once based on non-DD where there is only a fixed difference.

I have no objection to the way these comparison sites offering these services this way to those that want them. But I would much rather go to the supplier's websites and get a raw price list.

(I have tried phoning them - but usually get passed around before going through the same silliness of being asked how much I'm using now before they can quote me so they "can be sure they have found the right tariff for me". How patronising!)

This just adds an extra dimension! Your time.....

I can devote so much energy (pun intended) to this economically (and I guess this thread would already have exhausted that) but it's not my business so it's not critical if I spend more time than really economic.

But the main point is that you can do the math if you can get the information but the utility companies won't give it to you.
Your office supply companies seem to be able to provide this so what exactly is it that stops the utility companies providing this?

Unfortunately I can only surmise that the utility companies have come to live with and work with the utility switching websites and see it as a lose some-gain some scenario. This means the utility switching sites are the main ones that gain followed by the utility companies who use this to obfuscate their actual tariffs.

Through lobbying they manage to say it's too complex to give consumers actual tariffs, let their (partner) companies take care of this.
It would be interesting to see WHO owns percentages of the utility switching companies.


The only other examples I have seen like this is the old mortgage system that fell apart in 2009 and the mobile phone companies.

Back in 1999 I bought a house, I had a lot of spare cash having worked as an expat for a few years but we still got nominal tax relief on mortgages and so I decided to get a mortgage.

I was looking for a 50% mortgage but first I had to contend with the companies offering me 110% (that I didn't want).
Then I had to contend with £5000 cashback or £2500 for white goods vouchers.....

All I wanted was a simple 50% mortgage with the best rates and most flexibility. All they would offer me was inflated rates and lack of flexibility with the offer of 'cashback'.

The managers of banks and building societies all presented me similar 'offers' because they were all more expensive to me and they got commission because of this.

They seemed completely unable to take my circumstances into consideration and could only see the mortgage offers in terms of their commission.

When it boiled down to it, removing the special conditions and lock-ins against something that looked attractive if you didn't own a paper and pencil and the ability to calculate compound interest... there were only 2-3 mortgages per company.

It wasn't until you got rid of the deliberate guff surrounding the mortgages that this became obvious!

As you say, the utility companies pretty much do the same... once you actually spend time on the click throughs they have 2-3 tariffs and the rest is just trading off your flexibility to hit you elsewhere.
Dual fuel seems to be one last time I had the time to calculate I couldn't find a single supplier that it worked out cheaper (though this is some years ago now)

Mobile phone network suppliers seem to do the same thing offering a FREE phone. I have seen few cases where this has not simply meant hire purchase. Indeed last time I calculated my O2 one it was pretty much to the penny the price of buying a unlocked iPhone from Apple and a separate contract from O2....

The only difference is they lock my phone to their network and I lose flexibility on the contract!

I have no objection to this but I do object to them marketing it as a FREE phone....

Back on utilities..... if they want to offer the range of discounts, lock-ins and whatever they should be free to do so BUT they should be forced to also publish their basic tariffs.