Landlord dispute, mediation failed. Help before court

a1meewillygogs

Hello.

Moved into a property november 2003-no check in inventory

Moved out june 2012 no check out inventory done.

Landlady has changed her mind on amounts she wants to keep from us and the reasons four times now.

After her making false claims and nasty aligations we started court procedings. She made a counter claim. She wants to keep our £660 deposit to redecorate, £300 for gardening, £150 for her admin fees so wants to claim another almost £500 ontop of keeping her deposit.

Ive written my defence, i think i have alot. Photos when we left. Two statements from neighbours confirming new tenants moved in two days after we left- shes claimed by letter we left it un viewable!

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Just had phone call mediation. It didnt work she wanted us to let her keep the deposit and pay £40 to her. My point was why would i take her to court when initially she said she would just keep our deposit. And then pay her £40 plus all the court fees ive paid.

Her main points were- we had decorated without permission.!

The house was never all neutral like shes claiming. We also lived there almost 9 years she never decorated or paid for paint. She verbally said we could decorate we have nothing on paper however (stupid i know!) but it wasnt newly decorated so shes seen it onany occassions and never said a word. We also have an email from her earlier this year which says she had happily let us decorate-shes claimimg this is not permission.

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Shes also saying we left the garden in a state. We didnt and a neighbour has again written a statement saying we hadnt. So its basically our word against hers.

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I also have various other things to use against her. We believe shes sent us fake quotes. For example the gardener doesnt come up as a gardener he is registered as a therapist which is also her job!

The same day she sent us a letter claiming she would get quotes we have a dated photo that shows they have done garden work already.

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Our comtract is tiny. It only states that permision is needed to decorate (what shes trying to use against us) it only says it needs to be clean when we leave- which shes admitted it was spotless.

Have we got enough to use against her? I thought i had alot against her but she seems so comfident that i just feel like maybe she is right? Can i argue that her email, her being aware we had decorated !(it wasnt newly decorated!!) and her not decorating in nearly 9 years!!

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Please help

go_cat

Has she raised any issues with you over the decorating over the last 9 years? Has she checked the house since you decorated. She sounds a complete nightmare and I wish you every success at court

Fire_Fox

I'm getting deja vu, can you please update old threads so all the information is together? It sounds like you have a good case to me. Yes you can use e-mails as evidence, submit everything and let the court decide what is relevant or admissible.

martinsurrey

Even if she wins on the decorating, the court will not award full cost as this would be betterment, after 9 years of living there, a large deduction would be made for wear and tear (wear caused by things like sofa's against walls)

But without an inventory at check in, she cant proove any damage at all.

Good luck, not that I think you'll need it (based on the basic facts given)

a1meewillygogs

Thanku all for ur posts. Yes i have put threads about this before, im unsure how to link them?

No she has never once said anything about us decorating and has visited on lots of occassions. New tenants moved in days later which suggests the property was in good condition.

Its got to the point where im doubting my whole case. Ive brought up betterment, the fact shes never disputed anything before. And she doesnt respond. Just says we owe her money. The mediator said she was very assertive and didnt want to talk about the situation just wanted to talk figures.

Zorz_2

-Since there is no check-in inventory, she doesn't have any evidence of the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy. Remember, the burden of proof lies on her.

-Is your deposit protected? When you moved in, it wasn't mandatory. But if in the meantime you have signed to extend the tenancy with new fixed terms, and this was done after 2007, then at that time she would be
obligated to protect your deposit and send you the prescribed information.

-Fair wear and tear. As others said, after 9 years the place would probably need to be freshened up anyway. She doesn't have the right to improve the property out of your own pocket. So, while -say for instance- a hole in the wall would be your responsibility to fix, frayed carpets and faded paint wouldn't.

a1meewillygogs

Our contract was never renewed, we only have the one signed in 2003 and its the smallest contract ive ever seen. Just one A4 page. So deposit didnt need to be protected.

There just seems to be no talking to her. Which is why ive started to doubt the case as shes very confident.

martinsurrey

a1meewillygogs wrote: »

Our contract was never renewed, we only have the one signed in 2003 and its the smallest contract ive ever seen. Just one A4 page. So deposit didnt need to be protected.

There just seems to be no talking to her. Which is why ive started to doubt the case as shes very confident.

"confidance comes before a fall"

Even though the deposit may not need to be protected, she still cant prove any deductions are reasonable, and so, given the length of the tenancy, should not be an issue.

Add on to this her failure to engage purposefully in mediation and the judge won’t be best pleased about having his time wasted (mediation was intended to stop these ever getting to court).

When you win, be sure to request costs.

princeofpounds

Her main points were- we had decorated without permission.!

The house was never all neutral like shes claiming. We also lived there almost 9 years she never decorated or paid for paint. She verbally said we could decorate we have nothing on paper however (stupid i know!) but it wasnt newly decorated so shes seen it onany occassions and never said a word. We also have an email from her earlier this year which says she had happily let us decorate-shes claimimg this is not permission.

OK, there were two ways to defend this:

1) There was no inventory and so no record of the condition of the house on entry. So claim you never decorated and she cannot prove on the balance of evidence that you did. The advantage of this is the likelihood of not paying a penny, the disadvantage is that it sounds like she may have some evidence that you did decorate in an email, and it is also a lie. Depending on what you have already written, this may not be available to you now.

2) You did decorate but had permission. Your email from her is very powerful evidence for this, assuming it says what you claim it does - does she say she explicitly is ok with it or not? You should also explain that she is not entitled to betterment even if the court decides she did not give you permission, and after 9 years there should be a very large deduction for wear and tear. This is a strong defence, but you might end up having to pay a little depending on how clear that email is. It also has the advantage of being the truth.

Shes also saying we left the garden in a state. We didnt and a neighbour has again written a statement saying we hadnt. So its basically our word against hers.

You should win this as there is no proof of condition on entry and doubt over her assessment on exit. You should claim that the garden was in a bad state on entry and in a good (or at least better or equal) state on exit. Is the neighbour available to appear as a witness and/or is their statement in a form that is admissible to court?

I also have various other things to use against her. We believe shes sent us fake quotes. For example the gardener doesnt come up as a gardener he is registered as a therapist which is also her job!

The same day she sent us a letter claiming she would get quotes we have a dated photo that shows they have done garden work already.

I would also include this, but I wouldn't bang on about it too much. The case will not be decided on this point - that will simply depend on a judgement of condition on entry and exit - but it might have a bearing on what will be awarded and how any costs will be allocated.

Our comtract is tiny. It only states that permision is needed to decorate (what shes trying to use against us) it only says it needs to be clean when we leave- which shes admitted it was spotless.

If she gave permission to decorate outside of the contract, that is ok, it overrides the contract as you are assumed to have amended the contract verbally. As for cleanliness, does not matter what the contract says, the property needs to be in the same condition on exit as entry and she needs to provide evidence of this. Not beyond all reasonable doubt like in a criminal case, but the initial burden is on her and not you.

Have we got enough to use against her? I thought i had alot against her but she seems so comfident that i just feel like maybe she is right? Can i argue that her email, her being aware we had decorated !(it wasnt newly decorated!!) and her not decorating in nearly 9 years!!

This email - if she was just aware you did it, then that is not permission. If she was expressing approval, then that might be considered indicative of permission.

Overall you are in a good position. Don't waver - the worst that can happen is you get some small costs awarded against you (only court fees for small claims court, no lawyers) and you don't see your deposit.

But I believe the most likely outcome here is either that you win outright if the email is clear, or you are asked to pay a relatively small amount of money for the highly-depreciated paint.

I wouldn't be surprised that even if you lose, you end up with a situation where the judge awards her a tiny award for the decorating which doesn't even recover her costs, and refuses to award her any costs. That's what they often do if a party technically wins the case but is clearly devious.

Other points
- be very clear and organised with your evidence.
- judges often try to dispose of cases quickly. Don't be afraid to express important points you think they might miss or ask for things if you think they forget. For example, if you win and they start to make an order and forget about costs, you can ask about transferring them to her.
- in your claim, include costs and interest.
- if you have a true position, don't compromise that by offering to settle by implicitly admitting some liability. For instance, if you intend to argue you had permission to decorate, don't go offering to pay money for redecoration.

Oh, I should add not to worry too much. Small claims courts are used to ordinary people arguing their cases and it's a relatively sympathetic environment compared to the courts you see on TV, as long as you aren't wasting their time and are clear and organised.

dancingfairy

Hmmm. This sounds suspiciously like the err 'landlady' mentioned in the epic Eager Learner's thread. You might want to do a search on it and see if you can learn from it.
I would also see if you can PM the user Eager Learner and see if ,indeed it is the exact same person as I believe they had quotes from a gardener (that turned out to be a therapist or something). It sounds like the same 'landlady' is at it again.
df

a1meewillygogs

I cant argue that i havent decorated, as i have admitted this in a letter nor would i want to lie. The email she sent was earlier this year, she wanted to show potential new tenants around the house. We hadnt said we were moving or given notice to move so told her we wouldnt allow this. We basically sent her a letter saying we were and had been good tenants for nearly 9 years and she was treating us unfairly. The email she sent was in response to this, and it states "we happily let you decorate the house even though you originally wasnt supposed to" i will argue the fact that that we were given verbal permission but it will be our word against hers.

Shes dropped all the other claims that she originally tried to bring up which makes me think shes had legal advice and told her thats the route to go down.

Ive not claimed for interest just my court fees, ive not done this for profit more the principal as we did leave the house in better condition and loved it like it was our own. Shes even claimed for admin fees for what im not sure?!

Ive got everything together and feel very organised. I didnt think mediation would work today but didnt think she would expect us to pay her money for us to stop our own claim which has knocked me and left me doubting everything.