Paypal Scammed Please Help!

Dave543

sennypijama wrote: »

AFTER the seller has transferred the money out of Paypal.

Just interested.

As per the above post - they are in a protective shield by their t&c's.

However, I do not know what other professional organisations would make of them.

Dave543

Furthermore, notice on the sign up page:

Under 18s may not use PayPal. (As if that will stop 'em!)

By checking the box and clicking the button, I agree and consent to the terms of:

the User Agreement; and
the Privacy Policy; specifically consenting to PayPal processing and disclosing my data and communicating with me according to that policy. I understand that I can view and adjust my Communication Preferences at any time in my account Profile.

Again, though - this is not a CCA or signed agreement, an electronic checkbox is no replacement for a signed document. You are not even required to sign your name as per online Credit Card applications.

Paypal are a payment processor, not a bank / lender which is why I assume such a 'debt' is not applicable under UK debt-relief law, from my personal understanding (probably incorrect).

sennypijama

Thanks for the T&Cs.

IANAL but we all know that the T&Cs of a company do not override the law, and an unfair contract cannot be enforced.

So what I'm saying is, I'd try and get hold of a good pro bono Consumer Rights lawyer to fight Paypal on this one - they should have contacted the OP before refunding the money to the buyer.

Edited to say: Paypal allow this fraud to happen, and I feel that they should be held jointly responsible. It's time for a test case.

Dave543

sennypijama wrote: »

Thanks for the T&Cs.

IANAL but we all know that the T&Cs of a company do not override the law, and an unfair contract cannot be enforced.

So what I'm saying is, I'd try and get hold of a good pro bono Consumer Rights lawyer to fight Paypal on this one - they should have contacted the OP before refunding the money to the buyer.

Edited to say: Paypal allow this fraud to happen, and I feel that they should be held jointly responsible. It's time for a test case.

The funny thing is, bad publicity does the same thing. Upon searching 'Paypal collection problem' (which most only find out about when it affects them), Paypal do 'reimburse' those affected with 'good-will' payments, that have been in the press. From the top of my head, a student in London received £1000 back (a Gumtree listing to-boot, but it is still eBay/Paypal anyway).

Some have taken them to court and won, others have lost. Recently, a lady did so for a similar thing to the OP but did post the item, and the judge ruled in her favour but nothing was said about the T&C's.

Paypal are adamant that there is nothing wrong with their T&C's, and that you do, of course, agree to them.

In the 'States, in 2003 I believe, a judge did rule that their T&C's were unenforceable. Although I am unsure how anything 'unenforceable' can become 'enforceable'.

dollydiva

I have sold this way before, with the buyer collecting, but always have the buyer write a receipt that they have collected the goods. My ebay friend in the US suffered a similar fate with some collector dolls and called the local Sheriff, who went with a deputy to the house of the woman scammer and removed the dolls until ownership was established. Sadly, you won't get that sort of service from your local Police.
dd

antrobus

dollydiva wrote: »

I have sold this way before, with the buyer collecting, but always have the buyer write a receipt that they have collected the goods....

All that proves is that someone collected the goods. But you know that anyway. It provides no protection whatsoever. The only sure fire protection is to insist on cash. (And even then you should check the cash is real.)

dollydiva wrote: »

.. My ebay friend in the US suffered a similar fate with some collector dolls and called the local Sheriff, who went with a deputy to the house of the woman scammer and removed the dolls until ownership was established. Sadly, you won't get that sort of service from your local Police.
dd

Especially if you don't know where the scammer lives.

Buzby

I cannot believe that those who are quick enough to use PayPal, do not read the warnings to sellers where it is stated and repeated, that goods must be sent by traceable means - if you do not, then the risk is yours. I agree it is a hard lesson to learn, but he fact remains the seller was scammed, and PayPal will rightfully pursue you for the money.

The contract is not unfair - it provides for the necessary proof the item was received by the buyer in a way they can check, without this sellers can all claim the item was picked up - supposedly by the buyer - and keep the goods AND the money.

The responsibility for Seller's Safety and the guarantee are clearly stipulated. You didn't follow the rules, and suffered as a result.

As to what happens next for amounts owed to PayPal, they will seek recovery by requesting any negative balance is cleared. If you don't do this, your account is suspended and your Credit File marked to show the default (you agreed to this). Next, if around £500-£700 all you may suffer is a flurry of begging letters from a DCA pursuing you for the balance. Over this amount, they will initiate a Small Claims action, which may lead to a CCJ in addition to the Credit File default.

Whilst you feel aggrieved you've dealt with a disreputable buyer, this is not PP's fault. It is unreasonable to claim PP should lose out because you didn't know (or care) about the correct way to sell your item.

soolin

im-lost wrote: »

considering they have already been refunded, the dispute process has already run its course.

The op has told them the item was collected.

The time to do the brick trick is at the start of the dispute where you are given a few days to provide a tracking number;)

For seller protection though goods must be dispatched within 7 days of the payment being made. So if you get a dispute you are already too late to get tracking details.

If someone is going to use PayPal then they absolutely must read the criteria for seller protection and not guessing or take a friend of a friends anecdotal story as proof of anything.

There is an explanation of the seller protection criteria on the eBay board (see my sig) on the postage sticky thread.

Alias_Omega

The only time people read about "seller protection" with Paypal on this forum, is when things go wrong..

Dave543

I feel that placing the blame on the Sellers is not very fair though.

eBay force you to accept Paypal payments, otherwise they will pull your listing. (Unless you are selling Motor Vehicles)

Furthermore, if you take to advertise 'cash on collection' and not Paypal, you run the risk of your listing being pulled as well.

eBay are the problem - they do not warn you about these risks and most people only find out about them when it has happened to them.

Also, you do not even have to admit to have 'read' the T&C's, only that you agree to them. That, in itself, seems like a major omission.

Yes, the stuff may be clearly stated but if you do not know of the rules, or look for them (because you do not have to) you would not know about them.

Having said that, eBay do not want any of this to change as it will cost them money.

I admit, after reading through their T&C's I would advise against using them for selling anything. Unfortunately, that is too late for me and the OP, and we have to try and deal with the negative balances and fight them as best we can.

Yes, we may have agreed to their T&C's, but that does not mean we read them, nor does it mean we understood them.