Dazed and confused

ceegeekay

Hi - Can't find a similar question on here to mine so...

I used a claim company in November last year to see if I had any PPI I could get back. I had no idea about what it was, hence my belief I needed specialist help.

After some tediously long waits from 2 mortgage companies, my bank (a long paid off loan) and 2 maxed out credit cards, all answers came back as "we're innocent guv". The one that took longest, almost a year, was Capital One credit card. But the company (We Claim You Gain), did say they thought there was something owing and would take it further.

Then I got the final letter saying sorry, can't do it.

Last week I called Capital One to see about arranging to pay off the debt and the woman I spoke to openly said there was a lot of PPI on my account and maybe I should look at that.

I was passed on to someone else who mysteriously wanted to know why I'd lost my job of 27 years 3 years ago and then why I'd lost a recent part-time job; they were both pure redundancies. Not my bad behaviour. I had to wait a few times whilst secret talking went on and finally was told that back in 2000 when I took out the card I signed the contract which included info about PPI. I would need to prove I wasn't aware of the PPI clause. How would I do that? Well, if I made use of it for instance. And under what circumstances would I make use of it? (See, I was still that ignorant last week..) Well, for instance, if I lost my job... what?? So I pointed out I'd lost 2 jobs in 3 years for reasons outside my control and I never knew I could make these claims. Evidence or what? The woman went silent and went off the phone again for a mutter. When she returned I was told it was all too late now as they sent a letter out with the initial rejection last November 2011. I insisted that was not true, they took ages longer than everyone else.

I came off the phone and called WeClaim..etc. They said no letter was received back in November and that their rejection letter was received in September 2012. So what could I/we do? By this time I'd looked at some statements and was horrified to see these PPI charges ranged from £56-£67 a month on the ones I checked. WeClaim also went away to mutter and came back to say that there was an appeal to the Ombudsman we could have made but the last date for that was tomorrow - 2nd October. Could we appeal now, by e-mail? Away again, muttering. She came back and said the truth was that both they and the Ombudsman find Capital One so difficult and intransigent they no longer waste everyone's time attempting to resolve these things with them. What? Was the 'last date for appeal' a lie they came up with? Am I too small fry for their efforts? If it's not easy do they give up? Does that mean those other rejections were only so much paper? Did anybody really check?

Sorry for the saga - well done if you've made it this far and thank you. But is there an appeal deadline? Surely I had or have a case that should not have been abandoned so easily? And the out and out lies and excuses from Capital One.

I started enlisting help from another claim company (30% commission which I negotiated down to 27%), but coming on here I'm wondering...should I do this myself? And is it really hopeless with these mysterious deadlines and 'proof' of awareness. I don't want to waste time and effort for more disappointment but now I'm so angry! :mad: Is nobody straight dealing?? I must be owed thousands. Surely?

Any help and advice is appreciated. So bad at this stuff I'd rather hammer nails in my head but if there's a chance to get this back I'll do it. Many thanks....to anyone taking the trouble.:beer:

Wywth

ceegeekay wrote: »

Hi - Can't find a similar question on here to mine ...

There's a reason for that; this is the Reclaim Bank & Credit Card Charges board

I suggest you try the Reclaim PPI & Other Insurance board

dunstonh

After some tediously long waits from 2 mortgage companies, my bank (a long paid off loan) and 2 maxed out credit cards, all answers came back as "we're innocent guv". The one that took longest, almost a year, was Capital One credit card. But the company (We Claim You Gain), did say they thought there was something owing and would take it further.

Statistically you expect to be rejected on mortgage insurances as the vast majority are set up correctly and are quite valid for their purpose. Credit cards and loans are where the real issues are.

Capital One also are known to be likely to fail on complaints as well. This is because most of their applications were online of using a mailshot and therefore not sold to. If you are not sold to then you cant really be mis-sold. You are only then reliant on a failing in the administration. No such failing has occurred with Cap One. FOS stats show that they only overturned 11% of cap one complaints. So, again the odds of success are low with Cap One.

This is the sort of information an honest claims company should be giving you to ensure your hopes are not set too high and you are aware of the issues. There is nothing owing to you. That is a bad sales line. You have a right to complain and if successful you will get a redress payment. If not, you get nothing.

She came back and said the truth was that both they and the Ombudsman find Capital One so difficult and intransigent they no longer waste everyone's time attempting to resolve these things with them.

That is a lie. The claims company may choose not to refer Cap One because the odds of success are low but the FOS do not find them difficult or intransigent. When a company only has an 11% overturn rate, that means the FOS finds in favour of the company 89% of the time because the evidence points to that. Difficult companies would be the other way around.

But is there an appeal deadline?

You get 6 months from the rejection to refer your complaint to the FOS. After 6 months you are timebarred. The time bar can be waived but it rarely is. Medical conditions which see you incapacitated. death of spouse/child are the main things that see them overruled. I suspect yours doesn't carry that same weight.

Sorry for the saga - well done if you've made it this far and thank you. But is there an appeal deadline? Surely I had or have a case that should not have been abandoned so easily? And the out and out lies and excuses from Capital One.

You seem to be blaming capital one. However, it looks more like you should be blaming the claims company.

I started enlisting help from another claim company (30% commission which I negotiated down to 27%), but coming on here I'm wondering...should I do this myself?

You cant raise another complaint. You get one chance. They can refer you to their earlier response. Indeed, this is actually attempt 3 as the telephone call you had with cap one was attempt 2 and you saw what happened when they realised you had complained and given a rejection before.

Why do you think you are owed thousands? The one thing you havent mentioned are your reasons for complaint. Given the low success rate with Cap One but your belief you are owed money suggests you have a very strong and provable complaint reason. However, with Cap One being very good and fair at handling complaints, if that was the case, they would likely have paid the refund.

McKneff

To be honest, I think you are flogging a dead horse,

I would accept what duncanh says and move on, only then will you stop being 'dazed and confused.

ceegeekay

Thank you duncanh for your informative response even though I am apparently on the wrong forum. I did search ALL the forums. And there is more than one PPI forum. Thought I was on the correct one. I didn't want to waste anyone's time. Sorry.

dunstonh wrote: »

Capital One also are known to be likely to fail on complaints as well. This is because most of their applications were online of using a mailshot and therefore not sold to. If you are not sold to then you cant really be mis-sold. You are only then reliant on a failing in the administration. No such failing has occurred with Cap One. FOS stats show that they only overturned 11% of cap one complaints. So, again the odds of success are low with Cap One.

Ok, I understand the mis-selling rests on how I set up the account initially. I know I didn't apply online. I got the card in 2000 and I didn't have a computer then. The mailshot is possible but I no longer remember. So am I right in thinking unless salesperson from a (probably) already subscribed to institution, such as a bank, 'sells' you the card in person or over the phone, there is hardly ever a chance of winning a claim for being 'mis-sold' PPI? How many people know this? So mis-selling is defined how? Someone has to approach me and offer it or talk me into it? If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm not sure many people know there is a distinction. And out of interest, how are you sure no "failing in the administration" occurred? What would that look like?

This is the sort of information an honest claims company should be giving you to ensure your hopes are not set too high and you are aware of the issues. There is nothing owing to you. That is a bad sales line. You have a right to complain and if successful you will get a redress payment. If not, you get nothing.

I had almost zero hope of getting anything from the start. Being in dire straits right now I thought there'd be no harm in giving this PPI thing a go. I looked at it like entering a raffle. I was unlikely to win. I didn't fall for any spiel. I am not a fantasist. I feel I have given an impression of being a greedy gullible fool somehow.

That is a lie. The claims company may choose not to refer Cap One because the odds of success are low but the FOS do not find them difficult or intransigent. When a company only has an 11% overturn rate, that means the FOS finds in favour of the company 89% of the time because the evidence points to that. Difficult companies would be the other way around.

Ok, get that. But I knew it was a lie. How do you know the FOS don't find them difficult? Just asking. Part of my confusion is why she had to lie? What's wrong with giving me your explanation? It left me wondering how she had the opinion of the ombudsman. Or inferred one. I know there is a time limit for these appeals and they are the last stop. But then she suggested we could appeal to them implying there was a case to put. But if they thought that why hadn't they suggested it before instead of suddenly noticing 'Oh!'- the last date for an appeal was tomorrow - Oct.2nd. Sorry! Nothing we could do? Not even by e-mail? No too late. So yes, I have a grievance about W.C.Y.G. definitely. But they never raised my hopes. I didn't have any. It gave me the feeling they could have gone further at one point but I got lost in the mix and it was only one company. They had sent me a letter weeks before saying Cap.One had rejected my claim but they felt there were grounds for further investigation. Maybe Cap.One not completely innocent.

But my suspicion about Cap One was alerted by the fact they had lied to me (and it had been confirmed by WCYG) by saying they had sent a rejection letter nearly a year ago when WCTG and I had got that letter in Sept. this year. So, if there is a 6 month period of appeal from the time of the rejection letter, well, Cap One saying they sent the letter a year ago closes my chance to appeal, unless I and W.C.Y.G. can somehow prove they didn't. Both myself and the claim co. have copies of the Sept. 2012 rejection. I seem to have been lied to by both sides. And why cover something up which has a perfectly straight up reason for rejection?

BTW, when I phoned Capital One last week it wasn't to make complaint number 2, it was to pay off a chunk of debt and ask for help as I will have no way of paying anything in a few months time. Right then, I got the only confirmation I've had from anyone that I had been paying PPI for 12 years, several of those years maxed out - £50-£70 a month. The woman at Cap One suggested I try and claim it back to help my debt and she put me through to the PPI dept. She was probably new to the company.

You seem to be blaming capital one. However, it looks more like you should be blaming the claims company.

I have reason to think both sides have manipulated things and lied to me, but for what reason if what you say is true? If I wasn't mis-sold why lie? In the case of Cap. One, why take 3 times longer than everyone else to reject my enquiry, appearing to try closing my appeal chances by saying they sent the rejection letter a year ago? Myself and W.C.Y.G. only have the rejection letter from Sept this year remember. And when I was put through to the PPI dept. last week by the woman helping me with my debt, why was I questioned about whether I understood the original contract (they could have just said I applied by mailshot, from what you tell me. All above board - NOT mis-sold) - and then they asked detailed questions about why I lost 2 jobs in 3 years, only to tell me I wasn't even eligible to use the PPI in one of the very circumstances for which it is designed? I lost the second job only last week. Both of them clear and provable redundancies.

I had no idea posting on this forum counted as complaint number 3 by the way.

Why do I think I'm owed thousands? I didn't do the figures. I took a very wild guess from looking at recent statements and noticing the PPI figure for the first time. Call it 'a decent amount'. And yes, I've now found some other threads where idiots like us are deemed to be deserving of everything we get for being so dim as to not notice that unknown, impenetrable acronym that is often on a second sheet for some reason. An acronym I had never heard of before last year. Why am I the bad guy? I find statements boring. I'm glad there are people out there who can find this stuff interesting. If I bought an appliance in Curry's, no matter how I did it I'd be asked if I wanted insurance. They wouldn't take my card and deduct some money every month for years without checking I wanted to pay it first.

Having no real knowledge of PPI except from recent advertising bombardments what I understood was that if PPI was included in my contract with a loan institution, without it being discussed with me and offered as an optional extra, then it was mis-sold. Cap One said I would have to provide evidence of my ignorance of the PPI contract. They didn't say I applied via a leafletting campaign, that I obviously didn't read the small print and this leaves them free of liability. Actually, I would say it should rely strongly on how it's worded in the contract. All those years ago if I filled in an application leaflet which in the small print said a percentage payment for PPI would be added p.c.m. depending on the size of debt, I know I wouldn't have noticed it based strongly on the fact I would have had no idea what that was and my trust in the company would lead me to expect such a thing to be made very clear. So I would like to see the original contract. Snowball and hell come to mind.

No, they questioned me to prove I had no awareness of PPI when I signed the contract. Course I didn't. I gave them the best evidence I could. That I didn't even know I had something I could claim on in the event of job loss, which is it's purpose. Otherwise I would. So could I do that? No, as I explained above, for reasons I forget, I don't even qualify for that. Best I can do. It just looks like a racket.

Capital One are very good and fair at handling complaints you say? Maybe they need to be seen to be. Doing more research they have mis-sold more PPI than any other institution.

On the subject of Cap One's practice. As a new user I'm not allowed to post links, but if you're interested look up Capital One on Huffington Post.

Thanks again duncanh for going through my post. Maybe I should migrate to the correct forum. Not hoping for much but I expected to be understood sadly. But I WAS mis-sold PPI because I never opted to have it. They have been taking my money for years. I may lack vigilance but we don't prosecute people for being burgled when they leave their window open while on holiday. I was lied to and possibly tricked and my time was wasted. Unlikely there's much I can do but...well, I'll see.

ceegeekay

Sorry-dunstonh - spelt your name wrong! Hate that!

dunstonh

Ok, I understand the mis-selling rests on how I set up the account initially. I know I didn't apply online. I got the card in 2000 and I didn't have a computer then. The mailshot is possible but I no longer remember. So am I right in thinking unless salesperson from a (probably) already subscribed to institution, such as a bank, 'sells' you the card in person or over the phone, there is hardly ever a chance of winning a claim for being 'mis-sold' PPI? How many people know this? So mis-selling is defined how? Someone has to approach me and offer it or talk me into it? If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm not sure many people know there is a distinction. And out of interest, how are you sure no "failing in the administration" occurred? What would that look like?

A claims company would know this and you employed a claims company to give you advice. We know there is no failing in the administration with Cap One as it would have come to light in the number of overturns the FOS would make and the reasons given.

How do you know the FOS don't find them difficult?

We have ex FOS staff posting on this board. Also, reputations of companies gets out in the financial press and internet forums. You dont get an 11% overturn rate by being difficult. You get it by being fair or even generous.

BTW, when I phoned Capital One last week it wasn't to make complaint number 2, it was to pay off a chunk of debt and ask for help as I will have no way of paying anything in a few months time. Right then, I got the only confirmation I've had from anyone that I had been paying PPI for 12 years, several of those years maxed out - £50-£70 a month. The woman at Cap One suggested I try and claim it back to help my debt and she put me through to the PPI dept. She was probably new to the company.

it would have led to complaint 2 had the person not seen you had already been rejected.

I had no idea posting on this forum counted as complaint number 3 by the way.

complaint 3 was you employing another claims company to have another go.

Why am I the bad guy? I find statements boring. I'm glad there are people out there who can find this stuff interesting.

Most of the population read their statements. It allows you to spot issues and maintain your budget. If you choose not to then it is bad money management and you need to accept the consequences of that.

Having no real knowledge of PPI except from recent advertising bombardments what I understood was that if PPI was included in my contract with a loan institution, without it being discussed with me and offered as an optional extra, then it was mis-sold.

That is one of the mis-sale reasons but it is one that is near impossible to prove and would likely fail without another identifiable failing taking place. If you make that allegation, what prove do you have to back it up? Almost certainly none and you can bet the firm has nothing on their files to suggest it happened.

Cap One said I would have to provide evidence of my ignorance of the PPI contract.

Which is a fair response.

Capital One are very good and fair at handling complaints you say? Maybe they need to be seen to be. Doing more research they have mis-sold more PPI than any other institution.

The figures do not support that.

Maybe I should migrate to the correct forum. Not hoping for much but I expected to be understood sadly.

If you want a forum that agrees with everything you say and wraps you up in cotton wool telling you how bad these horrible companies are then go elsewhere. This forum gives you the pros and cons, the issues that exist and why things happen as they do.

I may lack vigilance but we don't prosecute people for being burgled when they leave their window open while on holiday.

And we dont prosecute people where someone makes an allegation which cannot be proven by them or by anything else.

I was lied to and possibly tricked and my time was wasted.

maybe you were. Maybe you were not. You admit you cannot remember.

ceegeekay

Thanks.
I don't need to be agreed with and wrapped in cotton wool. Charming. I thought there may be people on here who had some similar experiences and possible advice, seeing as how there seem to be a heck of a lot of sites complaining about Capital One. I'll watch every word from now on. Although I picked up a slightly sneery tone from one of the other replies so maybe won't be needing to.

I provided evidence of my ignorance of the PPI. I explained that 3 times.

I have not yet enlisted another claim company. I made enquiries.

Most people don't read their statements.

Fair enough, I'll have to accept other people's posts are boring to read which is why you segued two points I made together in order to sound punchy. There is only one thing I don't remember-how I first signed up. Full. Stop. So why slide that together with actual facts that are my real recent experience from just last week? I was lied to.

I'd read up about Capital One.

Being vigilant in examining our bank/credit card statements is not a correlate of decent principles upheld by institutions we have historically, but mistakenly trusted. I handed that one on a plate. Still, makes for punchy again.

You made 4 points above that were fair and correct. The rest are answers based on misunderstanding. I won't list the rest of them.

Thanks for some of those replies but although I'm a somewhat compulsive forum debater when I pick up a disrespectful tone I'm off.

magpiecottage

dunstonh wrote: »

You seem to be blaming capital one. However, it looks more like you should be blaming the claims company.

By their own admission it is more likely than not that the PPI was missold, so a complaint that the OP has lost out because the ambulance was negligent in failing to get the complaint to FOS within the time limit will be difficult to defend.

The suggestion that Capital One is intransigent so FOS will not deal with them is a nonsense. If the complaint falls within its jurisdiction then FOS will take it on and if necessary make an award against it which is legally binding.

If Capital One did not pay the award, you could take it to court which would find in your favour simply on the basis that you could prove you had accepted an Ombudsman's decision against it.

ceegeekay

For anyone who might be interested.

I have unearthed the reason Cap.1 rejected my claim.

Apparently the PPI was taken out in 2003 when my card was renewed and had to be activated over the phone. In recent memory that is nowadays done with automation. Cap.1 won their defence by saying I accepted the PPI during the phone conversation I had with them.

I would not have initiated a phone conversation about anything other than activating my card, of course. Apparently back then they had a script they had to stick to, which included an offer of PPI. And as I explained, I never knew I had it otherwise I could have claimed on it for sickness and job loss. Apart from complete forgetfulness how could this be?

I phoned the ombudsman for all this information and have been told I have grounds for another claim due to 'new information' not included the first time.

By luck I found a complete transcript of an almost identical case to mine of a man who also initially lost out after apparently 'acquiring' PPI during a scripted card activation phone call. His claim was found in his favour second time round with all money being paid back. The adjudicator (sorry, not allowed links otherwise it could be read) felt the wording of the script was so ambiguous and disingenuous that few people would have been able to follow the down the line consequences of saying yes to this insurance or even precisely what it was and how it operated. And it was deemed they were scripted that way purposely. Well, that's a surprise.

Also, back then, PPI was NOT put on the statements and when it began to be there has been criticism of the positioning of the information, also replete with confusion - meaningless hashtags, put on a different part of the statement etc. Things that kept it from looking connected to your bill. I guess that's part of why I never knew saw it before.

I'm still not hopeful of getting anything but I'm told it's definitely worth a try. This time I do it myself. Of course the comments from the claim company about the FOS were nonsense. One of the lies I referred to. Having said that, the FOS are not blemish free by a long way. But I guess that's another subject.

I'm not allowed a signature but here's a statement I agree with, from a classic book about the psychology of mass movements and the worship of power, "Self-contempt, however vague, sharpens our eyes for the imperfections of others"

I throw that in because there are reviews of this site out there that are glowing (as they should be) for the main body of information but advise to steer clear of the forums. Cabals of sometimes unpleasant older men seem to have gained dominance in a way that have caused many to have their conversations elsewhere. Best way I could say that.