The wording of a disciplinary letter..??

paddyrg

WasntMe wrote: »

...but at the same time i can't help but think - well why hasn't he been pulled in for the same?

Save your energy - that way will drive you nuts. Focus on the stuff that affects you directly andlet karma/fate play other peoples cards for them! It is easy to get caught up in the why's and wherefores etc., that path leads to madness.

Uncertain

WasntMe wrote: »

I
In addition to this, i discovered today that a co-worker, who is known for being a bit of a crawler where the boss is concerned, also recently slated my supervisor off on facebook.

This is completely irrelevant I'm afraid!

A boss can have favourites and a company can discriminate between its staff in any way it pleases providing it is not for one of the handful of reasons prohibited by law.

If they treated all staff who were practicing Catholics (say) far better than others or never promoted anybody from a particular ethnic group that would be illegal. However, the boss favouring the "crawlers" or those that invite him to their birthday parties is perfectly legal.

WasntMe_2

Oh don't worry - I understand what you're saying & know there's sweet FA I can do about it.
However when they have a policy in place (let's say no smoking anywhere in the company other than the designated area) & everyone does it anyway - sometimes in front of the boss, but when you do it it's game over, it just doesn't seem 'right'. As though, this policy is in place & you will be warned, but in practice that only applies if your name is Bob. Doesn't seem 'right'.

As I say though - I know there's nothing I can do about it. Plus the example above, assume I'm talking about smoking outside in the open before anyone quotes enclosed spaces law .

WasntMe_2

Just thinking about this one -

A concern i have is not being given the chance to put my responses back the way i would like.
An example...

I imagine one question they will ask will be "why haven't you learned" or "why did you say that".

To which i will respond truthfully that...
"at the time i thought it was acceptable..." And this is my concern, that at this point they will interrupt & blow their lids, telling me it's not acceptable & i should've learned my lesson & possibly lead on with other questions ....... when i've not actually finished answering the first one...
As i would, if they don't interrupt, go on to say something like .... "as what was said is no different to what goes on in our department day-to-day to each others face, HOWEVER, i now realise that i was foolish to think it acceptable, as it is not acceptable even if both parties have no issues with it - there is no place in the workplace for it & i now realise this"

Or something to that effect.

I know me though - and i know them interrupting will knock my train of thought. I'll be tense anyway & i know i'll end up forgetting bits i should really say. I wont interrupt their questions, but i can see them interrupting my answers.


So in short, how do i deal with this without it coming across as "keep quiet whilst i answer"? Even "could you give me the chance to answer please" may be taken as "oi you, it's my time to talk now", which is something i'd like to avoid.

So how do i get the chance to have a fair crack at answering?

I know i've not had the meeting yet, but i can hardly come here & ask AFTERWARDS.

guardianangel

Hi
I have read through your thread and couldn't see what the allegation was. I'm sure the ACAS code advises that should one of the outcomes be dismissal it has to be stated in the invite letter. In addition, they can not dismiss you on the grounds of gross misconduct (straight dismissal) if they do not state it, however, should you be on a final written warning (you state you have a written but to me this could be a first or final) then one of the outcomes could be dismissal, however, again, the letter should state something along the lines of 'you are current,ply on a final written warning and therefore the outcome of the disciplinary meeting could be dismissal'.

The fact that you have been suspended is not ideal, this usually means that the company is likely to dismiss you, however, the fact that it has been ongoing for a month is strange. That will only generally happen if you have been signed off sick and therefore it has delayed the meeting. It shouldn't take a month to investigate etc. your suspension is correct in saying what it did, it's the invite to disciplinary letter that's important as that will only have been sent after an investigation has been done and they have decided where to pitch the allegation, I.e. either misconduct or gross misconduct.

I would suggest that you preempt the questions and make some notes of those points you want to raise, it shows that you have thoroughly thought about your actions etc. that way you can also ensure you cover everything off. You should also be given a copy of all the evidence which they will use in the meeting so that you can use this to prepare for the meeting.

In regards to the Facebook comment, depending on how it is linked with your case if you feel that you are being penalised then you should raise it - need to also point out that evidence of this is vital. I know uncertain says you can't do anything about it as such but the fact that you raised should raise other questions. Should they decide not to investigate, and you get dismissed I would appeal going down the route that they failed investigate properly and treating you differently. In addition, it would also help your case at tribunal.

I would suggest you be honest and open in the meeting, if you are dismissed you do have the opportunity to appeal. The other alternative would be to resign and leave with immediate effort or resign and get a fit note to cover the notice period to buy you time to get another job.

WasntMe_2

guardianangel wrote: »

Hi
I have read through your thread and couldn't see what the allegation was. I'm sure the ACAS code advises that should one of the outcomes be dismissal it has to be stated in the invite letter.

This is something my union mentioned, but not as a 100% definite.

In addition, they can not dismiss you on the grounds of gross misconduct (straight dismissal) if they do not state it,

I never thought they'd see it as gross misconduct - because in the last case, the guy who got a final warning called out his supervisors & said what kind of firm he worked for. For telling this guy to book annual leave if he had a problem with not getting time off & telling him not to be late for work i received a written warning (stage 1), so i was guessing this current case would be seen as 1 of those, but when added to my written warning (stage 1) i wasn't sure what the outcome could be.

however, should you be on a final written warning (you state you have a written but to me this could be a first or final)

I'm on a first, not a final

The fact that you have been suspended is not ideal,

I know i waffle, but i'm always factual - so i'm confused why you think i've been suspended when i've never mentioned this? For the record, i'm not suspended.

however, the fact that it has been ongoing for a month is strange.

It hasn't. The first incident was approx 1 month ago. That was dealt with within a week of it blowing up. This second & current incident has only just happened & they're going to deal with it next week.

I would suggest that you preempt the questions and make some notes of those points you want to raise,

I was thinking about this - should i go in with sticky notes with one word prompts for example for me to address when answering specific questions...
...or is this likely to be taken as me being "false" - i'm reading from cards & therefore not meaning what i'm saying. In my mind it could go either way, but perhaps i'm paranoid.

You should also be given a copy of all the evidence which they will use in the meeting so that you can use this to prepare for the meeting.

I have - the facebook printout & a copy of the minutes of the investigation. I actually disagree with the minutes taken. They are roughly correct, but not precise in my view. I believe they're written in such a way to paint me in an even worse light. Some of what i said has been changed & some words twisted. For example - i said my supervisor sometimes does XYZ, but also there's sometimes he doesn't. In the minutes, it says i've stated that my supervisor is ALWAYS doing XYZ, which 1) isn't true & 2) isn't what i said. That's just 1 example.
But i figure it's in my interest not to state that i think the minutes taken are inaccurate.

In regards to the Facebook comment, depending on how it is linked with your case if you feel that you are being penalised then you should raise it

MY view is this could get their backs up. Anyone seen as challenging the system will get punished.

- need to also point out that evidence of this is vital.

I can get hold of this, but it is likely to drop a co-worker right in the do-do & that isn't what i'm about. If i lose my job & have to appeal, then i will be using everything i can get my hands on, but i don't want to drop others in it.

The other alternative would be to resign and leave with immediate effort

This is one thing i've considered. Resigning will look better to a potential employer than being sacked, but if they were never going to sack me then i'm without a job in a climate where 100s are applying for even a position of toilet cleaner.

guardianangel

Apologies in advance, am typing on BB so can't do what you have done above but have responded in order so that should help...

If you have a written warning (as in first) then the next outcome would be final written warning. So it is likely that you will be issued with a final written warning for 12 months.

Suspension, sorry, read someone else's post, thinking it was your comment. Ignore what I wrote there.

Prompting questions - go in with notes on a pad, I would avoid sticky notes because you'll end up confusing yourself, whereas with a pad it is more organised and you can tick things that you have covered and those you haven't add at the end of the meeting when they ask do you have anything to add before we adjourn to make a decision. You are within your right to prepare for the meeting and how you do it is up to you - i think you are over thinking this. I have been in meetings where the other person hasn't prepared and has just turned up. Just remember if you need to gather your thoughts as you are getting flustered etc just ask for a 5/10 adjournment, they aren't the only ones who can adjourn the meeting, you can too.

Evidence - when you say you disagree with the minutes, I am assuming your are referring to the investigation minutes? Is this the first time you have seen these? And have you signed them? We're the minutes written int he meeting or afterwards? And by the person why did the investigation? I'd the minutes are not accurate you need to say, we would always ask the employee to read the minutes and sign to say they are accurate, obviously they aren't word for word but it should be an accurate reflection of what was said as the disciplinary panel bases their decision on these notes as well as your responses in the meeting.

Facebook comment - it's fine if you don't want to use it right now but would suggest that you gather the evidence just in case Facebook comments get deleted and you then lose your evidence.

Resignation - the final final alternative is to prepare a letter and after the adjournment when they give out the outcome if they do dismiss then you could offer your resignation instead. Obviously it's up to the business to decide whether to accept it or not.

I don't know the whole whole case but with the information you told me, I wouldn't be thinking of dismissing, I'll be looking at a final written and a stern talking to. However, I'm not your managers or know the culture of your company so it's hard to say.

denla

guardianangel wrote: »

Hi
The other alternative would be to resign and leave with immediate effort or resign and get a fit note to cover the notice period to buy you time to get another job.

References... OP resigned on own volition while under investigation for gross misconduct. That won't do. Unless OP gets in writing from employer they'll only mention employment dates, it's not smart resigning.

guardianangel

denla wrote: »

References... OP resigned on own volition while under investigation for gross misconduct. That won't do. Unless OP gets in writing from employer they'll only mention employment dates, it's not smart resigning.

Not necessary, due to issues these days the company could be liable if the employee does not get a job due to bad references. This is why most companies do not make comments on sickness, performance etc. Generally at this point the business wants the employee to leave and will leave the reason as resigned. I have worked in a number of sectors for different companies and this is the general process.

wrightk

i spoke to acas the other day regarding this very point. they say employment law is silent on references. only to say that your employer must not say anything that is incorrect which would cause detriment on any future job prospect.