Codicils to the will or just a "please give" list?

vikinggreen

Dad died a few months ago. His will, and mum's, are on shop bought forms in their own handwriting. Both stated quite simply that they left everything to each other (28 days, blah), and then to me, their only child. No bequests were made by either of them.

The estate is most unlikely to be liable for IHT when mum finally goes. I've just done Probate for dad, and it has been pretty straightforward.

Mum is still very emotional, and has talked about wanting to make bequests in her will. It does need to be re-written because I am the only Executor, and we need to add my husband to it as the second Executor.

The trouble is that she is changing her mind all the time about who she wants to make bequests to. It has been going on for 3 months now, and I am beginning to think that it would be easiest if she simply gives me a list of what she wants to give to whom, and I will then follow through on that in accordance with her wishes in due course. She can change the names/amounts/items at any time.

I know that codicils to a will can be created at any time, but I am worrying that we may end up with a sheaf of them, the way things are going at the moment, and when it comes to Probate it will be a nightmare.

When a friend of mine died she left her husband with a list of items she wanted him to give to close friends. They were simply gifts, not formal bequests. If Mum decides that someone deserves £1,000, for example, can it be dealt with the same way?

Savvy_Sue

I am sorry for your loss.

You can add a Letter of Wishes to a will: if everything's coming to you then it would certainly be easy enough to act on that. However it doesn't have any legal standing, AFAIK.

What sort of bequests is it Mum wishes to make?

It would certainly be a good idea to avoid multiple codicils. Why not suggest to Mum that she waits a little longer, and then writes a completely new will when she's clearer in her own mind?

vikinggreen

Hi Sue

Thank you for your sympathy.

I feel that we need to get her to rewrite the will a.s.a.p., just to update it following my father's death and to add my husband as joint Executor just in case something happens to me.

I will try to persuade her to keep any bequests out of it, and just attach a letter of wishes that she can change whenever she wants. I am not worried about the legal standing - I will simply follow through on my mum's wishes, whatever they are, and I know she trusts me to do that.

The bequests are all amounts of money, and none of them are ridiculous, but she changes her mind quite frequently about how much each person should receive. Also, she has added a couple of people to the mental list and then thought better of it a few days later. It is all part of the roller coaster of grief, I'm afraid.

She doesn't really seem to understand that if each change were to be made as a codicil to her will, she is potentially leaving me with a huge amount of trouble. It isn't something I would have been aware of either until I did the probate forms for my dad's estate, but I am rather wiser now than I was 3 months ago.

VG

getmore4less

She needs to consider who will benifit if you have gone?
Do you have children?


How much money are we talking about? If small amounts that she could well not need then why not consider giving it away anyway.

Why do loads of codicils done properly make a lot of extra work?

IIRC there is nothing on the PA1(1 tick box) or the IHT forms.


If making a list include all those she thought about but ended up changing her mind, that way you just have to change the numbers each time.

remember that these will become gifts from you so you have to think about the impact of those on your estate, and what happes if you are not around to make the gifts.
An executor cannot do this off their own back it would be the benifitiaries.

So if these were your children and they were under 18 the gifts could not be made.

Savvy_Sue

vikinggreen wrote: »

I feel that we need to get her to rewrite the will a.s.a.p., just to update it following my father's death and to add my husband as joint Executor just in case something happens to me.

I think it would be worth you spending just a little time establishing what would happen if you pre-deceased your mother, which might help you see that there's no need to panic. Yes, it needs to be done, but IMO it doesn't have to be done TODAY.

The situation only becomes problematic if you die before your mother, and then she dies shortly afterwards, without amending her will. Is that really likely to happen?

The fact that there wouldn't be a live executor is an inconvenience, but not an impossible situation to deal with. Any other relative could apply to take the will to probate, and that could include your OH if there's no-one else who wants to do it.

The estate would then be distributed according to the rules of intestacy, as I understand it, and you can google for them - there's a useful step by step guide on the HMRC website. If you have children, for example, it would go to them.

If she's desperate to sort out the executors, why not do that via a codicil and encourage her to relax a bit about the rest?

getmore4less wrote: »

Why do loads of codicils done properly make a lot of extra work?

It's a case of working through each one carefully and checking it's not superseded by the next. I guess it's easy enough if each one adds a new person X who's getting £y, more complicated if in Codicil 1 X gets £y, in Codicil 2 they get a different amount or are not mentioned, and then they re-surface in Codicil 3 with a lesser amount, then aren't mentioned again in Codicil 4 - I don't really understand how Codicils work, but it is generally easier on the executor if it's all in the will!

Plus Codicils aren't always done properly, any more than wills are!

getmore4less wrote: »

remember that these will become gifts from you so you have to think about the impact of those on your estate, and what happes if you are not around to make the gifts.
An executor cannot do this off their own back it would be the benifitiaries.

So if these were your children and they were under 18 the gifts could not be made.

I don't think this is relevant if the OP has children. Again, as I understand it, if Mother's will currently says "I leave everything to my husband Fred, and if he dies before me it all goes to my daughter vg", then if vg pre-deceases her mother, the laws of intestacy kick in, and it's extremely likely that vg's children would inherit.

BTW, it would be well worth while getting the Which book on Wills and Probate or something similar. If you get it from the library, check it's an up to date edition, likewise if you order second hand from Amazon!

Biggles

If it's only a minor gift, it wouldn't make sense to spend money changing the will each time she changed her mind.

My Mum wrote a few gifts in her will but, by the time she died, the amounts were fairly meaningless due to inflation.

If they are minor, and if she trusts you, she may as well leave everything to you and trust you to make the appropriate gifts, adjusted by inflation if necessary.

That way, you have the flexibility to make sure the gifts are appropriate, how ever many years later it might be.

vikinggreen

Lots of helpful thoughts and things to consider. Thank you all.

getmore4less wrote: »

She needs to consider who will benifit if you have gone?
Do you have children?

Yes, I have children under 18. We haven't yet given serious consideration to what happens if I predecease her because it does seem unlikely - she is quite elderly. I think it is probable that she would leave her estate to my husband in that event (more on that below).

How much money are we talking about? If small amounts that she could well not need then why not consider giving it away anyway.

A few amounts of £500 and a couple of £1000. I think she would be embarrassed to hand them over during her lifetime, and the recipients would be even more so to get them. Also, they exceed the £3000 annual limit in total, and she makes gifts up to that amount already each year.

Why do loads of codicils done properly make a lot of extra work?

IIRC there is nothing on the PA1(1 tick box) or the IHT forms.

Maybe I have the wrong impression, but my dad's will has been so straightforward that the Probate office don't even need to see me - I just need to see a local solicitor to swear the oath. I just have a feeling that lots of codicils might make my life a lot more complicated.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I think it would be worth you spending just a little time establishing what would happen if you pre-deceased your mother, which might help you see that there's no need to panic. Yes, it needs to be done, but IMO it doesn't have to be done TODAY.

The situation only becomes problematic if you die before your mother, and then she dies shortly afterwards, without amending her will. Is that really likely to happen?

I hope not!! It's just that she keeps mentioning the will, mainly because of these bequests that are buzzing around in her head. I have written them all down as we've gone along, so even if she died tomorrow I would still be able to fulfill her wishes as they stand at present.

The fact that there wouldn't be a live executor is an inconvenience, but not an impossible situation to deal with. Any other relative could apply to take the will to probate, and that could include your OH if there's no-one else who wants to do it.

That's why it has to be my OH - I am effectively my mum's only relative, apart from my children. (Complicated back story that isn't relevant.)

If she's desperate to sort out the executors, why not do that via a codicil and encourage her to relax a bit about the rest?

She doesn't seem worried about the Executors, it's really me that's worrying about that.

more complicated if in Codicil 1 X gets £y, in Codicil 2 they get a different amount or are not mentioned, and then they re-surface in Codicil 3 with a lesser amount, then aren't mentioned again in Codicil 4

This is the bit that bothers me - Person A was originally deserving of £500, and then she felt that was mean, so she upped it to £1000, and then it went back to £500 on reflection. Person B, much the same, and so on. It is really a bit of a displacement activity for her at the moment - a way of thinking about the kindness people have shown her over the years and, in particular, in recent weeks.

I don't think this is relevant if the OP has children. Again, as I understand it, if Mother's will currently says "I leave everything to my husband Fred, and if he dies before me it all goes to my daughter vg", then if vg pre-deceases her mother, the laws of intestacy kick in, and it's extremely likely that vg's children would inherit.

This is another thing that worries me. Without going into details, that would not be a good thing to happen at present.

BTW, it would be well worth while getting the Which book on Wills and Probate or something similar. If you get it from the library, check it's an up to date edition, likewise if you order second hand from Amazon!

I will certainly look into that - thanks for the suggestion, Sue. I have rather been relying on the internet until now for the few queries I have had, but I'm very conscious that not everything you read on the net can be relied upon.

valk_scot

Do the simple will now if it makes you all feel better, there's no reason not to. Then take six months or a year even to draw up this list of gifts, you can keep it as a simple list of wishes until it's finalised then once it's complete to your mum's satisfaction then add it as one big codicil to the will, if that's what she wants.

missile

This is another thing that worries me. Without going into details, that would not be a good thing to happen at present.

I may be reading more into this and certainly would not want you to go into detail but you really ought to do your own will. What if you are knocked over by a bus tomorrow? Two things are certain: death and taxes.

getmore4less

If you have concerns over your kids inheriting or other blood family complications then you need to sort things out.

remember kids under 18 canot inherit directly it has to go into trust and the defaults trustees are the executors/administrators of the estate the money comes from.


You need to think through the various combinations od people dieing in different orders and do the flow chart for where the assets go just do you have an idea of what you need to do to stop stuff going where you don't want it to

Do you ever travel with your mum in a car

Who have you appointed gardians of your kids if both you and you husband get killed in a car crash.


Maybe I have the wrong impression, but my dad's will has been so straightforward that the Probate office don't even need to see me - I just need to see a local solicitor to swear the oath. I just have a feeling that lots of codicils might make my life a lot more complicated.

Standard practic, thye only care is it undamaged original and who are the executors and has the tax clearance come through(or excepted estate).

Biggles

vikinggreen wrote: »

Maybe I have the wrong impression, but my dad's will has been so straightforward that the Probate office don't even need to see me - I just need to see a local solicitor to swear the oath.

That's basically all that happens at the Probate Office, but they do it free; I guess a solicitor will charge?