Universal Credits - Self Employed

MissMoneypenny

Blue22 wrote: »

Why as different as apples and pears? Both are calculated by something called 'income'.

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

UC is taking (welfare) from the state as you aren't supporting yourself or your family: income tax is giving to the state. As different as apples and pears; but under tax credits, they got mixed up and that is now being corrected.

Blue22 wrote: »

A PAYE worker has the same annual income that is used to calculate both welfare and income tax. So why shouldn't someone who is self employed?

I'm sure you are clever enough to know that a SE can reduce their tax bill. i.e. their travelling costs and can easliy show low earnings; whereas a PAYE can't. You can make figures show anything but with PAYE, what you see is what you get.

Are you seriously suggesting we keep letting the SE have 2 bites of the cherry (a fruity themed post) by still paying less tax and using their books to a show low income to claim maximum welfare? Just be grateful for the years you were able to do this and accept it is (rightly) ending.

dktreesea

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

I'm sure you are clever enough to know that a SE can reduce their tax bill. i.e. their travelling costs and can easliy show low earnings; whereas a PAYE can't. You can make figures show anything but with PAYE, what you see is what you get.

Are you seriously suggesting we keep letting the SE have 2 bites of the cherry (a fruity themed post) by still paying less tax and using their books to a show low income to claim maximum welfare? Just be grateful for the years you were able to do this and accept it is (rightly) ending.

Stictly speaking, the PAYE employee is selling his labour and is usually not making any capital investment in himself to maintain his skills, - costs incurred in the improvement/expansion of skills or business not being claimable either for the PAYE or SE person. His inability to offset any costs is because he doesn't incur any costs in the production of his income.

The SE person doesn't need to make figures up. If they are working from home, then all work related travel is claimable. Sure, you can lie in your log book, but at some point you may be required to show additional proof, e.g. receipts for costs incurred that show those costs were on behalf of the business. But there are no limits on what they can claim. E.g. you could lease a brand new Mercedes van, get a contract for the latest iPhone 5, rent the poshest house in the street then claim 1/10th of the rent if that represents your home office's floorspace, move out of self storage into better warehouse space for storage of your surplus stock, upgrade your computer if you need it all or some of the time for work. And that's even if, were you wholly responsible for your own income without recourse to public funds, you wouldn't dream of wasting money on any of those options.

Blue22

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

I'm sure you are clever enough to know that a SE can reduce their tax bill. i.e. their travelling costs and can easliy show low earnings; whereas a PAYE can't. You can make figures show anything but with PAYE, what you see is what you get.

That's really sad that you think like that MissMoneyPenny. No it's not easy to show low income without lying, which is something I can honestly say I didn't in over two decades. I had the visits from the tax inspector and from the VAT man and if anything lost out on legitimate expenses because of technicalities with invoices I had received or by misplacing the odd invoice.

Btw traveling costs are usually legitimate expenses when self employed as you don't work in one location. At present I am PAYE and as I'm based at home I get paid 45p/mile by my employer when I need to travel, so what is the difference?

The only way to show low earnings is by either not earning much or by fraud. In my time self employed I didn't do either. I paid tax often at the higher rate. But as I said before if both the government and joe public (i.e people with your mindset) were branding me as a cheat, and leaving me disadvantaged by being honest, then I would be inclined and feel justified just putting the cash in my back pocket.

Morglin

It looks as though Universal Credit, nationwide, will be delayed by at least a year anyway, regardless of whether someone is self employed or not:

"The Government's flagship reform of Britain's welfare system, which is being piloted by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Iain Duncan Smith, has been placed on a Treasury list of projects in crisis, The Independent on Sunday has learned.

Despite assurances from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) that universal credit will be rolled out on time and on budget, its national launch – scheduled for October next year – will now be limited to small regional projects. Sources within the DWP have told The IoS that a realistic national roll-out – regardless of the department's public assurances – is already a year behind schedule amid fears that "technical issues over computer software" could push that back further.

Senior DWP staff working on the project are understood to have reported concerns to their Treasury counterparts. The issue was a factor in Mr Duncan Smith remaining at the DWP during the recent Cabinet reshuffle.

A government adviser on information technology said: "IDS, like other ministers before him, has been hypnotised by promises of what an online system can deliver. Warnings were given to him more than a year ago. They were ignored."
Universal credit has a development budget of £2bn. It is supposed to be a paperless online IT system for claimants that would bridge the DWP's data with the Treasury. Six separate benefits are to be combined into one payment.

However, the project, according to senior Whitehall sources, is already suffering a £100m overrun. There are also concerns that a further £300m is being hidden by rising costs reallocated to child support payments.

A reorganisation of the complex IT system, following the departure this month of key senior civil servants in charge of universal credit, could mean an overrun of £500m by next spring.

Universal credit potentially affects 19 million people in the UK. Failure to deliver the reforms because of expensive IT errors and design flaws will be deeply embarrassing for David Cameron.

The programme's director, Malcolm Whitehouse, and the DWP's head of IT, Steve Dover, last week announced they would be leaving the department. The senior civil servant on the project was described as being "on extended sick leave". Other key personnel have also left."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/benefits-reform-under-threat-after-it-glitch-8303835.html

Lin :whistle:

FRESTER

Morglin wrote: »

It looks as though Universal Credit, nationwide, will be delayed by at least a year anyway, regardless of whether someone is self employed or not:

"The Government's flagship reform of Britain's welfare system, which is being piloted by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Iain Duncan Smith, has been placed on a Treasury list of projects in crisis, The Independent on Sunday has learned.

Despite assurances from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) that universal credit will be rolled out on time and on budget, its national launch – scheduled for October next year – will now be limited to small regional projects. Sources within the DWP have told The IoS that a realistic national roll-out – regardless of the department's public assurances – is already a year behind schedule amid fears that "technical issues over computer software" could push that back further.

Senior DWP staff working on the project are understood to have reported concerns to their Treasury counterparts. The issue was a factor in Mr Duncan Smith remaining at the DWP during the recent Cabinet reshuffle.

A government adviser on information technology said: "IDS, like other ministers before him, has been hypnotised by promises of what an online system can deliver. Warnings were given to him more than a year ago. They were ignored."
Universal credit has a development budget of £2bn. It is supposed to be a paperless online IT system for claimants that would bridge the DWP's data with the Treasury. Six separate benefits are to be combined into one payment.

However, the project, according to senior Whitehall sources, is already suffering a £100m overrun. There are also concerns that a further £300m is being hidden by rising costs reallocated to child support payments.

A reorganisation of the complex IT system, following the departure this month of key senior civil servants in charge of universal credit, could mean an overrun of £500m by next spring.

Universal credit potentially affects 19 million people in the UK. Failure to deliver the reforms because of expensive IT errors and design flaws will be deeply embarrassing for David Cameron.

The programme's director, Malcolm Whitehouse, and the DWP's head of IT, Steve Dover, last week announced they would be leaving the department. The senior civil servant on the project was described as being "on extended sick leave". Other key personnel have also left."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/benefits-reform-under-threat-after-it-glitch-8303835.html

Lin :whistle:

I can see universal credit not being rolled out until after the next election,Labour getting back in and scrapping the whole thing.

[Deleted User]

I hope so, so very much!
If the new system comes in it will really impact me, I don't want to claim forever, however I'd like to be out of debt before it starts :-/

FRESTER

assj wrote: »

I hope so, so very much!
If the new system comes in it will really impact me, I don't want to claim forever, however I'd like to be out of debt before it starts :-/

I hope it doesn't come in.We have a child on middle rate dla and it looks like we will get a lot less than under the tax credit system.
My wife is self employed (earning over nmw) but the monthly reporting of profit is going to be complex.

leveller2911

FRESTER wrote: »

I can see universal credit not being rolled out until after the next election,Labour getting back in and scrapping the whole thing.

Quite possible ,however it will result in the UK being similar to Greece. In a spiral of debt,Civil unrest and very few options of a way out. All those wishing for a swift end to the proposed changes to the welfare state had better think long and hard what exactly they do wish for.

People are so naive if they think Nu-Labour have any solutions to the problems we face....

There is no easy solution and typically Nu-Labour harp on about a plan and yet they give little actual details of their "Plan" and openly admit they would need to make similar cuts as the Condems.That together with the fact that we suffered 13yrs of financial suicide they don't exactly install confidence.

People need to start standing on their own feet and stop relying on the State to bail them out.

MissMoneypenny

Blue22 wrote: »

That's really sad that you think like that MissMoneyPenny. No it's not easy to show low income without lying,

i.e. many farmers have been able to claim tax credits, despite very generous handouts from the EU too. One farmer told me that they had never had it so good.

Can you really not see the difference between using all your tax deductables to show a low income and pay less tax; and using a low income to claim more welfare payments?

Didn't you know that you can make figures show anything?

MissMoneypenny

leveller2911 wrote: »

That together with the fact that we suffered 13yrs of financial suicide they don't exactly install confidence.

After just a few years of Labour's last reign, one leading American(?) businessman stated that the UK's Labour government had inherited a model economy and in a few short years, had managed to turn it into a basket case.

We now have a 1 trillion debt and there is little faith in the business world in Labour, after the way they behaved over the last decade. Which means if we lose our AAA rating, we will have to pay more interest on our debts and the cuts will have to be much deeper than they are now.

The days of a government borrowing heavily and paying out lots of welfare to buy votes, are over. There will have to be more cuts too. Your children and grandchildren will have to pay for the heavy borrowing of the the last government.