Iva question

Gimpsdad

To memberme.

I would be interested to hear the experiences of your own IVA. An IVA is not a punishment, if the cost of living increases, these should be wiped out by increases in income. If that doesn't happen, then any and all IP's should be happy to assist if their clients are finding it hard.

What people spend their extra allowances on is all down to personal choice, but at the end of the day the other choice on here seems to be to enter into into a DMP that is free, but where you pay far more per month, as everyone seems very keen on telling you to strip your budget to the core.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Depth_Charge

Hi

Im afraid to say that in my opinion and experience memberme's post is basically a fair relection of what is actually happening in the real world.

When people enter a debt solution especially a formal one then the whole idea is to free of the burden of debt not to be in a worse position than when they started and the finish line constantly fading into the distance.

What do the adverts say, be debt free in five years, one affordable monthly payment, really, is that how it is?

All the responsible and experienced people involved in debt advice know (or should do by now) what is happening with falling incomes and the increase in the cost of living and they also know it is going to get much worse unless something dramatic happens.

"You pays your money you takes your choice" well that wont excactly put food on the table for the kids, keep people in their homes or pay essential bills etc or is any sort of answer for people suffering in debt.

Pay your money, mmm, to who and what for, well now, that might be an altogether different question.

Fair point about stripping money to the core though Gimpsdad, I will give you that, but not any sort answer to the problem.

There is a real problem situation developing and not just with IVAs, it needs addressing, and soon or it will eventually address itself, might not be pretty though if it does.

Thats the way I see it

Gimpsdad

I never said it was an unfair comment, more that I would be interested to hear his or her own experiences.

It is, as well, fair to point out re falling incomes and increases in the cost of living. What must be remembered, though, is that I have never said that there is an ideal debt solution, there are only choices. Short of borrowing all your life with no intention of ever being debt free, or not paying a bean to repay the debts, each solution calls for contributions towards the debts (ignoring for a minute DRO's and Non IPA/IPO BR's) and therefore, a degree of discipline, sometimes overly so. If you compare DMP's and IVA's, both are driven, to a point, by creditors anyway. If you exceed creditor guidelines, which are quite mean in some areas in my humble opinion, then they can refuse to accept an IVA proposal. What happens then? The debtor agrees to cut back usually. Not right, not fair, but there you have it. Do that on a DMP and they usually turn a blind eye, as you are offering them their money back in full. If they seriously disagree then they can pocket the payment, but refuse to freeze interest on the DMP. Either way, it is usually the debtor that suffers. Not right and not fair, so who do you blame? The IP? the debtor? The DMP organisation? The creditors that have an unhealthy influence?

IP's use CCCS expenditure guidelines in the vast majority of IVA proposals as the creditor voting representatives insist that they do. Closed shop? Cartel? Vested interests? You bet.

Ok, you don't like that, so you go on a DMP for more "flexibility". Otherwise described as either a life sentence or a more expensive monthly outgoing than the IVA route anyway. Who do you go to? Why, the creditor funded CCCS of course. It is the poor debtors I feel sorry for, the people that, by entering into either arrangement, is trying to do what they can by meeting them halfway.

The only solutions that are completely free of creditor influence are BR's and DRO's, but of course they are not for everyone and some people refuse to countenance them even if they are the right solution. That's what I meant by you pays your money. I don't entirely disagree with your hint that the IP in an IVA is of course just as interested in his return. Business is business, but it should be pointed out that IP's make much, much more money by being appointed as Trustees in BR than they do by administering IVA's, but they do at least legally shield the debtor from undue creditor influence once the IVA has been approved where debtors take that option. There is of course no such firewall in a DMP. I also accept that sometimes, they will fail and that the debtor is left back at square one. As you know, fees in an IVA are collected disproportionately at the front, meaning it can be an expensive failure if it does go wrong. That is why research is a key element, just as it is with a DMP. Do your research and take your choice.

Hope you find that fair.

milliemonster

memberme wrote: »

To Gimpsdad. Anyone who has been in an IVA for a couple of years or more with a reasonable debt will know that the contingency,social money etc etc....has all long since been eaten up by increases in the cost of living. Anyone finding it easy must have a new IVA or little debt.

Well I have to say being in an IVA for 2 years I completely disagree with this post, the whole point of an IVA now is that you actually become better off as time goes by, I had a pay rise of £150 a month earlier this year, only 50% of this would be taken into account anyway but i managed to offset this in increases in food, petrol and electric so I am much better off this year than I was in my first year of an IVA. All our allowances are generous (much more than they would be in a DMP) so compared with how things were when we were fighting to keep our heads above water, we are much better off, are able to save and can sleep at night, just finished all our xmas shopping for the kids this month already.

On top of this I know that I can have a 15% reduction into my payments if I need to without going back to creditors, my IP is fantastic and very amenable to anything that crops up (and she is not with one of the charities), IVA companies don't want failure son their books as they have to report every failure to their regulators so they work hard to ensure your IVA is comfortable for you.

Best thing we ever did, 3 more years and it will be over, if we'd gone for a DMP we would have been looking at 20years

Gimpsdad

Nice post, and glad to see that you are very happy. That doesn't mean that the others don't have a point, I actually think they do, but a bit of balance is really very refreshing.

I wouldn't say depth charge is anti IVA, more that a healthy dose of scepticism exists. I don't mind that, and a healthy debate never hurt anyone. Where I think this forum goes wrong is that it views the DMP as God, and the alternatives as s**t on your shoe.

A DMP is a good solution occasionally. Just not very often. It is the only solution in which you completely and utterly trust to luck as soon as you start, and all the way through until you finish. All others, not just IVA, offer far more in the way of certainty, at least at the outset, than DMP's.

Depth_Charge

Gimpsdad wrote: »

I never said it was an unfair comment, more that I would be interested to hear his or her own experiences.

It is, as well, fair to point out re falling incomes and increases in the cost of living. What must be remembered, though, is that I have never said that there is an ideal debt solution, there are only choices. Short of borrowing all your life with no intention of ever being debt free, or not paying a bean to repay the debts, each solution calls for contributions towards the debts (ignoring for a minute DRO's and Non IPA/IPO BR's) and therefore, a degree of discipline, sometimes overly so. If you compare DMP's and IVA's, both are driven, to a point, by creditors anyway. If you exceed creditor guidelines, which are quite mean in some areas in my humble opinion, then they can refuse to accept an IVA proposal. What happens then? The debtor agrees to cut back usually. Not right, not fair, but there you have it. Do that on a DMP and they usually turn a blind eye, as you are offering them their money back in full. If they seriously disagree then they can pocket the payment, but refuse to freeze interest on the DMP. Either way, it is usually the debtor that suffers. Not right and not fair, so who do you blame? The IP? the debtor? The DMP organisation? The creditors that have an unhealthy influence?

IP's use CCCS expenditure guidelines in the vast majority of IVA proposals as the creditor voting representatives insist that they do. Closed shop? Cartel? Vested interests? You bet.

Ok, you don't like that, so you go on a DMP for more "flexibility". Otherwise described as either a life sentence or a more expensive monthly outgoing than the IVA route anyway. Who do you go to? Why, the creditor funded CCCS of course. It is the poor debtors I feel sorry for, the people that, by entering into either arrangement, is trying to do what they can by meeting them halfway.

The only solutions that are completely free of creditor influence are BR's and DRO's, but of course they are not for everyone and some people refuse to countenance them even if they are the right solution. That's what I meant by you pays your money. I don't entirely disagree with your hint that the IP in an IVA is of course just as interested in his return. Business is business, but it should be pointed out that IP's make much, much more money by being appointed as Trustees in BR than they do by administering IVA's, but they do at least legally shield the debtor from undue creditor influence once the IVA has been approved where debtors take that option. There is of course no such firewall in a DMP. I also accept that sometimes, they will fail and that the debtor is left back at square one. As you know, fees in an IVA are collected disproportionately at the front, meaning it can be an expensive failure if it does go wrong. That is why research is a key element, just as it is with a DMP. Do your research and take your choice.

Hope you find that fair.

Hi

Yes, its a fair post (very good if I am honest) and probably a well thought out one.

My bottom line is this - genuine independent advice at the outset, during and after whatever the situation or remedy.

These are somewhat unique and difficult times with people struggling with their debt payment arrangements and are in need of the above, does that always happen? well not in my opinion, maybe you think different.

I cannot see how the above can always be the case if commission, sales & profit are involved but I do accept people have the right to a choice of who they approach for advice and assistance with their debts and obviously in the case of IVAs Insolvency Practitioners are basically a must.

I also believe that people should be made more aware that in failed IVAs assets and property can be at risk in some circumstances for example equity in someones home.

Your point about trustees is interesting and I think I have asked you this question before, but here it is again - who usually becomes the trustee in bankruptcy in the case of a failed IVA where the petitioner is the creditors or supervisor?

I am not anti IVA but I do tell it how it is based on very genuine experience as I am quite sure you already know.

I know and have met quite a few Insolvency Practitioners and indeed consult some of them on occasions and there are without doubt those that do their very best to assist their clients when in difficulty (if they ever meet them face to face or actually speak to them on a personal basis though, is another question)

My opinion is as my previous posts, that people are in for a rough time, you only have to look round this and other forums to see that

I agree with some of your points and your mention of balance and would also add that the way things are going it is becoming difficult to see how some people will ever become debt free but that does not mean they should fall victim to ambulance chasers.

Thats my take on it

I hope that you also find this post fair.

Vikipollard

Nothing really to add to the debate, as both sides are correct~ I found it increasingly difficult to make my money stretch, but did at least have a buffer of savings which I could dip in to if I needed to. I found it easier to save up to 2009 as prices really started to rocket from then on. But it does make you ask yourself if you REALLY need something when you've worked hard to squirrel away some emergency money.

Would just like to add that it's an absolute pleasure to see a mature and respectful debate without even the faintest hint of the handbags we see on some posts on the forum. Well done guys

RangersPete

I started IVA in 2007 and I also found the payments and budgets easier to stick to for the 1st 2 years even managing to squirrel away a small amount of savings. Then came 3 years of pay freezes, rising utilities and food, suddenly it was very difficult to manage, and a huge relief to finish!
Good luck to anyone trying to reach the light at the end of the tunnel

dancingfairy

Perhaps people need to be more informed that they can adjust their budget if they need (as said above the IP has sope to vary payments to a certain amount before referring back to creditors).
I can certainly understands the first persons fear of not having credit, given that we live in a society that basically seems to think we have to have some sort of credit to survive. People managed generations ago without credit and we can again, it's just that the skills people need are not taught or passed on in many cases.
I would just urge anyone to research whatever option is best for them and to review the situation and get in touch with their IVA practioner/dmp provider/OR etc if things become too tight to see what can be done.
df

Depth_Charge

dancingfairy wrote: »

Perhaps people need to be more informed that they can adjust their budget if they need (as said above the IP has sope to vary payments to a certain amount before referring back to creditors).
I can certainly understands the first persons fear of not having credit, given that we live in a society that basically seems to think we have to have some sort of credit to survive. People managed generations ago without credit and we can again, it's just that the skills people need are not taught or passed on in many cases.
I would just urge anyone to research whatever option is best for them and to review the situation and get in touch with their IVA practioner/dmp provider/OR etc if things become too tight to see what can be done.
df

Hi dancingfairy

This is good solid post and makes a lot of sense.

The problem with the IVA side can be that the !5% variation sometimes does not even really touch the reduction in disposable income and some of those I see are just no longer realistically viable, thats arguably if a number of them ever really were in the first place.

On top of everything else, the very recent proposed increase in energy prices and the huge food price increase scare due to the adverse weather you read about makes grim reading indeed.

Perfect storm brewing? you bet your bottom dollar it is?

Time for responsible, genuine, independent, impartial advice & support like never before or it might just all fall apart and maybe a baleful alternative lurking round the corner that could come out of the shadows and bite us all.