Whose fault was this one?

Jamie_Carter

TKA25 wrote: »

Sounds like a post made by somebody who hasn't got a valid argument to reply with.

The local NHS ambulance service have a 4 week driving course. The first 3 weeks are spent getting the driver up to ROSPA Gold level, and only the final week is spent driving under emergency conditions. Most of the failures occur in the first 3 weeks. It is very rare to have a student pass the first 3 weeks and then fail on the emergency driving module. When they do, it is normally a confidence issue of driving on blues rather than a core driving problem such as anticipation.

Emergency driving is anticipating, planning, spotting hazards, all round good observations, looking to make progress, reading road conditions etc. There are extra skills in addition to those taught on ROSPA courses, but to make out that emergency driving is a world apart is well off the mark.

Those who come on the course thinking they're going to be invisible drivers who are suddenly able to do rocket speeds through a busy town centre under some strange pretense that a few small LED blue lights in the grille are going to alert every motorist and pedestrian, are usually the ones who fail...

Those who go on the course expecting to do rocket speeds through towns, probably wouldn't have the right mentality to pass lower ROSPA levels. Those who reach higher levels are more likely to have the right mental attitude to continue to blue light training. But for you to say that the blue light training isn't much of a higher level than ROSPA gold, really puts your statements into doubt. Especially when combined with statements like this one:

TKA25 wrote: »

Half of my fleet at work is held together by sticky tape, it's a fact of life at my organisation and we deal with it.

TKA25

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Especially when combined with statements like this one:

As I'm sure you know (but choose to conveniently ignore), such a statement was a sarcastic example of how little relevance the condition of your works vehicle has to do with the standards you expect when purchasing your own private vehicle from a main dealer garage.

The works microwave hasn't been cleaned in several months, and there are dirty mugs that have been on the side for several weeks which have now developed a strange brand of penicillin.

It doesn't mean I accept such low hygiene standards in my own kitchen.

Jamie_Carter

TKA25 wrote: »

As I'm sure you know (but choose to conveniently ignore), such a statement was a sarcastic example of how little relevance the condition of your works vehicle has to do with the standards you expect when purchasing your own private vehicle from a main dealer garage.

The works microwave hasn't been cleaned in several months, and there are dirty mugs that have been on the side for several weeks which have now developed a strange brand of penicillin.

It doesn't mean I accept such low hygiene standards in my own kitchen.

But you accept those standards where you spend most of your working week??? I think standards at your workplace need to be looked into

TKA25

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

But you accept those standards where you spend most of your working week??? I think standards at your workplace need to be looked into

Fortunately (or unfortunately) the local area is overwhelmed with people lacking any form of common sense so I spend very little time sat on station as I'm too busy saving pondlife

brat

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

You obviously don't drive!

You have to understand that advice is NOT the law. It is good practice.

Road Traffic advice can serve as much more than good practice. A failure to heed that advice could be deemed to be careless driving. A serious breach of the 'manner of driving' advice definitely would be careless driving, possibly dangerous driving.
That is the framework in which filtering is accepted into the Highway Code as a conditionally tolerated activity. If a rider chooses not to heed the advice to "take care and keep your speed low", that's careless.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The Passat was clearly accelerating from the point just after they entered the road, and long before they had a clear view to the right…

(my bold).
I'm not so sure. Almost he slowest part of the Passat's movement was when the rear of the Passat started to disappear from view behind the Octavia. At that point the Passat driver would have a view to the right. We can speculate on distance of view, but it could easily have been 30 to 35 metres. That should give the Passat driver enough time to move out.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

…SO IT IS THEIR FAULT!!!!!!!!

Capital letters don’t make an argument any better Jamie.

You’re keen to belittle others' road traffic and driving experiences while at the same time alleging your driver training is superior to others. That’s not a particularly clever path to tread.

Can you enlighten us as to what advanced driver qualifications you possess?

almillar

I need to take responsibility for my unexpected position

I think it's totally expected, if you drive out of a petrol station, through a queue of traffic that's lined up along the left side of one lane, that someone would come along on the outside of it. I would, you would.

I certainly wouldn't be going at that speed

Yes, I'm sure most people here would agree that while the biker isn't doing 30, he is going a bit fast for the situation.

brat - I still disagree. If the Passat was 'creeping' properly, he wouldn't have been hit. The bike (I think) was within the speed limit, and the Passat should have expected the biker to appear. Agreed that the biker wasn't 'expecting the unexpected' either.

TKA25 - what's your opinion on the crash?

brat

almillar wrote: »

brat - I still disagree. If the Passat was 'creeping' properly, he wouldn't have been hit. The bike (I think) was within the speed limit, and the Passat should have expected the biker to appear. Agreed that the biker wasn't 'expecting the unexpected' either.

The speed limit really has little to do with it. The filtering rider needs to accept additional responsibilities before he starts to filter, namely low speed and extra care. He hasn't done that by a considerable margin, and is therefore riding without due care and attention.
This must be beyond doubt.

Another way of looking at the Passat's driving is comparing it with pulling out from a junction where there is limited view.

A few years I dealt with a fatal collision where a tractor towing hay turned right out of a rural road onto an NSL single carriageway. He had 75 metres of view to his right, before a bend took the road out of view behind a barn which protruded out towards the road edge. Unfortunately a motorcyclist came round the bend at a speed from which he was unable to stop, and collided with the trailer.
The tractor driver knew that if a bike came round the bend at or slightly above the speed limit, it should be able to stop in time. As soon as the tractor driver took the decision to go, it was important that he moved out as quickly as he could to reduce his time exposed to danger. IIRC it took 6 seconds for the combination to start to clear the nearside lane, 10 seconds to completely clear it.

This could easily have been the Passat driver's thought process. If he had cleared the view to allow him time to pull out without inappropriately conflicting with filtering bikers travelling at the maximum safe filtering speed, he may have considered it appropriate in the circumstances to clear the lane he is blocking as quickly as reasonable to reduce the time exposed to danger.

Even if he hasn't taken all these things into consideration, the rider doesn't know that. He's just been a crash waiting to happen.

Lum

brat wrote: »

A few years I dealt with a fatal collision where a tractor towing hay turned right out of a rural road onto an NSL single carriageway. He had 75 metres of view to his right, before a bend took the road out of view behind a barn which protruded out towards the road edge. Unfortunately a motorcyclist came round the bend at a speed from which he was unable to stop, and collided with the trailer.

Aside from the tractor you pretty much just described my fear every single morning.

I emerge from a single track lane which is on the inside edge of a left hand bend and has poor visibility due to vegetation. The speed limit is only 40mph and if you assume that people will actually do 40 then the visibility is fine from the Mondeo. You can pull out and be accelerating before anyone gets close enough to cause a problem.

In the Cefiro it's a little trickier as it has a much longer bonnet meaning you need to nose poke by a few feet potentially coming into conflict with cars. Not much you can do, even with your head pressed against the windscreen.

The real problem comes when people start exceeding that limit. There have been a couple of occasions where the road is completely clear and when you're about 60% of the way through pulling out, then the excessive speed biker appears and I have to floor it while still cornering, causing the 4WD to kick in, just to avoid a collision. This really annoys me as I hate going on boost while the oil is still cold, though admittedly not as much as I hate being rear ended by people.

I did have one incident that got rather silly. A biker clearly annoyed at having come around a corner onto to find a car pulling out and, even worse, only do the 40mph speed limit, decided to just carry on at 60ish before crossing the double white lines to overtake me.

Fortunately for him, both me and the oncoming truck driver were on the ball and both slammed on our brakes enough to create a gap of a couple of meters wide between both our front offside corners, thus allowing his overtake to end without someone having to call out one of TKA25's co-workers to scrape bits of biker off an HGVs front grille.

Before someone accuses me of being anti-biker based on this post, I should probably point out that the vast majority of times I get out with no problems and any bikers that do show up are doing a sensible speed and even those who do choose to break the speed limit choose a speed that allows them to stop safely. It's just the small number of idiots that give me the fear.

Jamie_Carter

brat wrote: »

Road Traffic advice can serve as much more than good practice. A failure to heed that advice could be deemed to be careless driving. A serious breach of the 'manner of driving' advice definitely would be careless driving, possibly dangerous driving.
That is the framework in which filtering is accepted into the Highway Code as a conditionally tolerated activity. If a rider chooses not to heed the advice to "take care and keep your speed low", that's careless.

(my bold).
I'm not so sure. Almost he slowest part of the Passat's movement was when the rear of the Passat started to disappear from view behind the Octavia. At that point the Passat driver would have a view to the right. We can speculate on distance of view, but it could easily have been 30 to 35 metres. That should give the Passat driver enough time to move out.



Capital letters don’t make an argument any better Jamie.

You’re keen to belittle others' road traffic and driving experiences while at the same time alleging your driver training is superior to others. That’s not a particularly clever path to tread.

Can you enlighten us as to what advanced driver qualifications you possess?

I have viewed the video over and over again. And from the point where the Passat leaves the garage forecourt, it is clearly accelerating. And this is clear to see.

The reason it seems like you don't drive, is because you seem to think that he would have had a clear view before he started to accelerate. Well this would be impossible, and if he had a clear view, then why did he pull out? Or was it that he didn't even look?

Like Lum, you also seem to be confusing driving that in your view isn't perfect, with actually breaking the law. The only person who could be prosecuted would be the Passat driver. But then you would know that if you were anything to do with RTC investigation, as you claim.

BertTheRaccoon

Lum wrote: »

In the Cefiro .

They are a bit of a hero chariot. Assuming it's a turbo model, it must be fun taking people by surprise in a little know jap saloon :beer: