ESA Migration the best way forward/options.

Simon7685

My migration from IB to ESA began in June this year. I initially had a WCA booked for early July. I was able to cancel this appointment as I requested that I wanted my WCA recorded.

They have now advised me of a new date of 3 October, the letter does not advise that it will be recorded but I will be ringing them to confirm, if it isn't I will again be asking to postpone for a date when it can be.

Now obiously regardless of this there will come a point when I have to face the dreaded WCA and no doubt like thousands of others I will be awarded 'Nil Points'.

At this point I understand I can;

A. Appeal

B. Claim JSA

Now at present I receive Income Support on the grounds of disability (Couple Rate) and a disability premium. I also get DLA (Renewed in June 2012) high rate mobility and low rate care.

As I understand it, if I appeal my income would remain unchanged whilst waiting for the appeal, as the assessment rate for a couple is the same as the IS rate I receive. Also the disability premium would continue as I qualify for it through my DLA. If this is incorrect then please feel free to correct me.

I also understand that I would be required to submit med certs from my GP until the result of any appeal.

Option B - claim JSA is a more complexed option I think but I believe I may have found a way to make it possible, though not fully understanding JSA and its workings I may be wrong.

The way I see it is when I get 'nil points' can I really cope with the months of anguish and going through another appeal tribunal having done 2 previously, even though they were both won.

So if I accept the decision to refuse ESA and claim JSA, I would still receive the same amount each week to live off, including the disability premium as I get DLA. I understand that a refusal of ESA could lead to a review of my DLA but for the purpose of this, I am assuming it doesn't. Hence the premium should continue to be paid.

So the same money but I would be required to actively seek work, along with the other 2 million plus people in the country. This is not something in principle that I am against, as I am not work shy but obviously there are limitations for me.

There a vast amount of jobs I would be incapable of doing from a physical point of view. Any prospective employer would have to accept that I would be a higher risk to employ because of illness and time off for medical appointments etc. I would be obliged to divulge to any employer my list of illnesses and health conditions, which I believe would be a barrier.

Surely it would then defer to the jobcentre to match me with my problems to a job that I could do. Therefore other than the inconvenience of having to attend a fortnightly signing, then this option need not be the nightmare that it appears at first thought, or am I missing something???

I feel that the chances of me finding a suitable job in the area in which I live are very very slim due to all the above things, my location and poor public transport options. Is it not the Job Centres Roll to facilitate a return to the workplace by helping me find suitable employment that my disabilities allow me to do? If they cannot find me a suitable job because of my disabilities then not a lot is going to change.

Please don't misunderstand me and start abusing me on here, if they can help me find appropriate employment, I am prepared to work. I would get a lot of help through Working Tax Credits etc, still receive my DLA and possibly housing benefit and Council tax benefit as well. So if a job was available and I could do it I would.

A full time job would see me get £206 a week in tax credits alone but the job has to be there and the employer willing to give me it and that is not as easy as it sounds!

So unless I misunderstand how the system works the nightmare of being refused ESA, may not be as bad as it sounds for a lot of people in the same boat as me, though I am sure you will all point out the pitfalls I've missed in this analysis..............

Either that or hurl abuse at me for claiming benefits in the first place, which seems to be a favourite nowadays.

Cpt.Scarlet

It would actually be your responsibilty to find a suitable job not the DWPs. Whilst you can set limits on the type of employment you would take, if these are too restrictive the DWP can either refuse to accept them or in the extreme remove your JSA.

You are required to meet certain targets in your job seeking, which is you fail to attain can lead to sanction. If the DWP do not believe you are fulfilling your contract because of your health, they can terminate your benefits.

You can be forwarded to the Work Programme, this can result in you being required to partake in work experience, whilst your health can limit what you are asked to do, if you are unable to fulfill this requirement because of it, your benefit can be removed.

There is something of a grey area between being fit and unfit for work, but you shouldn't assume there is a great deal of flexibility in this. The bottom line is that if the DWP do not think you are fit enough to work, they won't let you claim JSA. It is unfortunately far to easy to be too sick to claim JSA and not sick enough to claim ESA.

rogerblack

You have no official right whatsoever to have the medical recorded.
Various noises have been made by various bodies that you should be able to have this done - these do not at the moment have the force of law.
The best that can happen is that your not proceeding for reason that it's not recorded will be taken into account at a tribunal in several months time (with no payment due to you not complying with the assessment).

If you attend and are assessed (recorded or not), then you will be entitled to assessment rate while the appeal goes through.

The jobcentres role in helping disabled people into work is limited in practice.

You may, if disabled be able to negotiate a limited jobseeking agreement, which means you are seeking work of 16 hours or more.

I am unsure what level of DLA means that someone with a partner on JSA does not have to seek work themselves.

schrodie

rogerblack wrote: »

The jobcentres role in helping disabled people into work is limited in practice.

And that's putting it mildly!!

Simon7685

Thanks for the advice, it is appreciated. I realise that would be my responsibility to find a job, just as I understood it they had a responsibility to help me do that. With regards to limitations, surely they can only penalise you if you are deliberately obstructive and if things are based on can/cannot as oppose to will/will not?

If they decide that you are unfit for JSA, yet you have been refused ESA then what does that leave you with? Surely if you can't have either then you would go back to Income Support? Can they really leave people with nothing?

I am aware that you have to undertake to look for work and there are steps that you need to fullfill but again these must surely be based around your individual capabilities. for example soneone that can't walk more than 30 metres without experiencing severe pain, would not be required to walk the streets asking in shops etc?

I know it obviously won't be as simple as maybe I have written it but I am merely trying to find an alternative to having to go down the tribunal route when a WCA is failed (which it is by 9 out of 10).

Alternatively you go down the appeal route, have months of worry while waiting for a far from certain result that can go either way. If you win the appeal it has taken that long to get that they will probably just decide to reassess you again anyway. A scenario that seems to be happening on a regular basis now.

Roger I know there is no basis in law for insisting on a recorded WCA but it is a fact that the Govt have stated that claimants will be offered alternative dates, if a recording has been requested and cannot be done on the date of the WCA. Obviously the interpretations are different from one side to the other but it is something worth pushing for. Making life awkward/difficult for ATOS can be one of the few 'defences' left against a totally biased unfair system of assessment in my opinion.

I don't understand the last sentence Roger, it doesn't seem to apply to me. Unless you mean that if I go on to JSA they can force my wife to seek employment? If that is what you mean then I am aware of it.

Ultimately I worry that the whole agenda behind trying to force people off benefit is the overriding issue no matter what the result or cost to individuals. I know that there are people in a far worse situation health wise than me, who are being forced onto JSA because they get turned down for ESA and the system seems to allow it to happen.

rogerblack

Being not entitled to JSA due to illness or disability does not mean you are entitled to ESA.

In principle, actions you are required to take for JSA will take into account your disability.
How this works in practice will vary with the knowledge and understanding of the people you come into contact with.
If you are too ill that there is not a reasonable prospect of employment with a jobseekers agreement that would be sensible for you, you may not be able to claim JSA.

New claims for IS cannot be made on the grounds of disability.
There is no clear official path forward for those in this position.

Simon7685

So if I get turned down for ESA following the WCA which is what I suspect (based on current trends what I read, hear and see on TV). If I then go to sign on for JSA, what on earth happens if JSA decides I am not fit for the Jobseekers agreement and refuses me JSA?

Surely you can't apply for ESA again on the same grounds as you had just been refused it? Even if you did then the whole sorry circle would just go round again.

I remember now the rule that IS can't be paid on disability grounds for new claims but they can't just leave you without any benefit, or can they?

This must have been tested somewhere hasn't it?

rogerblack

There is no official path for what happens if you are refused JSA, and cannot claim ESA.

If it's been 6 months since your last determination that you did not have limited capacity for work, or you have developed a new condition, you can reclaim ESA. (for example, depression, or malnutrition due to no cash)

You can make a (possibly late) appeal against the decision to not give you ESA.

Under no circumstances can you go back on IS.

As I understand it, it's not been tested. It would probably need to be Judicial Review. (which is a step that a claimant in this position might find daunting to start, and it may not even be possible)

Either people have managed to claim JSA, when they are not 'really' entitled, or they have applied for ESA on the basis of a worsened condition, are being taken care of by relatives, or living off their DLA or other benefits, or even found work.

And some few will have taken more extreme measures.

Simon7685

My god, what a terrible state this whole system has got itself into. I know I have heard about people being refused ESA and taking their own life as a consequence but you tend to think to yourself, well surely there has to be another way?

I have always understood that the welfare system had to make sure you had a certain amount of money to live off each week, other than child benefit, child tax credit and DLA. So I have always been of the opinion that in this scenario there had to be a benefit you qualified for and would be awarded. I take it then then in theory someone can now be left without the means to feed themselves by law?

If a single person with no family and not receiving DLA finds themselves refused ESA, then JSA, the government is technically subjecting them to starve to death because the system does not provide an alternative benefit.

So either way you look at it, there is no easy solution to the situation for the claimant. Either fight the decision to refuse ESA, or agree to take steps to find employment that may not be possible for you to take.

What a sad society we seem to now live in if this is the case.......

Cpt.Scarlet

Why don't you wait and see what actually happens with your transfer before making detailed plans. The majority of IB claimants are successfully transferred to ESA.

Simon7685

I will wait to see what happens, I am not planning on not going to the assessment. I am merely trying to decide what the best way forward will be following it. Obviously I may turn out to be one of the minority that are placed in either WRAG or SUPPORT group but given the current trend of refusals, I somehow can't see it and statistics would seem to back up that theory.

I have gone through the descriptors and feel I should easily qualify for ESA but then most people feel that way only to attend and then are dismayed at being refused. It is a very worrrying time not to mention stressfull, once that envelope drops through the letterbox. Having had previous experience of ATOS and their alleged ability to assess peoples incapacities, it is doubly worrying.

This company are there to fail people in order to reduce the amount of the welfare bill for the government. They even admit to this in undercover filming for television programmes. They twist things you say in medicals and fill in the gaps with blatant untruths, I know this because I have experienced it and had one of their so called medicals thrown out at a tribunal as a result of proving that their 'doctor' lied in his report.

So whilst I am waiting to see the result, I know what I expect and need to plan for the best way forward now.