Is this even legal

jalexa

patman99 wrote: »

If you are in credit with any utilities company, then the Law allows for you to request that they refund the surplus back to your account.

That is true but a refund is not guaranteed. The relevant regulation (SLC 27.16) says this...

"Where the licensee considers that it is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances for it not to refund any Credit ... it must inform the relevant Domestic Customer of its view and of the reasons for holding that view."

Cardew

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Most direct debits are monthly, not quarterly.

Agreed.

However the OP wanted them to take the exact amount by DD when the bill was due.

I thought the whole point of direct debit when it came out was to make it easy for suppliers to just take payment when it was needed, so why don't they just take the amount of the bill each time it's due

jalexa

yangptangkipperbang wrote: »

You are not providing them with a free loan anyway. In the summer they will be in "pocket" - in the winter you will be. Over the year it will balance out.

I agree with most of your post but not that. The OVO direct debit payment scheme specifically "winter loads" the first year payments and then reviews in April changing the scheme from an 'anniversary' scheme to a 'spring aligned' scheme. At least that is what is stated or implied here...http://www.ovoenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Understanding_the_link_between_your_Direct_Debit_and_energy_consumption.pdf

'Spring aligned' schemes do not feature a period of customer debit balance.

Cardew

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Nope. A Direct Debit Mandate is an authority to collect agreed amounts from a bank account. Absent an agreement to for amounts to be collected, the Direct Debit Mandate might facilitate the taking of money, but the Mandate does not constitute an agreement - otherwise it is a carte blanche for suppliers to charge what they like and empty peoples' bank accounts at will.

The supplier needs to agree the amounts with the customer.

I don't want to get down to semantics, but I don't agree with the above.

The variable Direct Debit does indeed give the company 'carte blanche'(or authority) to collect variable sums from a customers account.

I have signed Direct Debit mandates with BT, Credit Card company, Sky, Utility company, Local Council, Water company, Insurance companies. All of them decide what money they will take from my account each month.


It depends how you define 'agreement'. Obviously they have to inform you in writing in advance if they are to vary the amount they intend to take, but that is different from a DD is for 'an agreed amount'. Equally obviously you can dispute the amount they intend to take, or cancel the Direct Debit.

With utility companies it is perfectly normal for them to vary the amount of the DD from time to time. They tell you in writing, in advance, how much they will be taking next month. Indeed there have been many cases of a company collecting the whole outstanding debit balance by DD - Hundreds of pounds.

Take the case of the OP, he/she has been told they intend to increase her DD by £19. She can dispute that amount, or cancel the DD.

DVardysShadow

Cardew wrote: »

I don't want to get down to semantics, but I don't agree with the above.

The variable Direct Debit does indeed give the company 'carte blanche'(or authority) to collect variable sums from a customers account.

I have signed Direct Debit mandates with BT, Credit Card company, Sky, Utility company, Local Council, Water company, Insurance companies. All of them decide what money they will take from my account each month.


It depends how you define 'agreement'. Obviously they have to inform you in writing in advance if they are to vary the amount they intend to take, but that is different from a DD is for 'an agreed amount'. Equally obviously you can dispute the amount they intend to take, or cancel the Direct Debit.

With utility companies it is perfectly normal for them to vary the amount of the DD from time to time. They tell you in writing, in advance, how much they will be taking next month. Indeed there have been many cases of a company collecting the whole outstanding debit balance by DD - Hundreds of pounds.

Take the case of the OP, he/she has been told they intend to increase her DD by £19. She can dispute that amount, or cancel the DD.

This really is old ground, Cardew. Direct Debits are no longer for fixed amounts, they are invariable for variable amounts.

They only constitute authority to take amounts agreed between supplier and customer. And the amount is variable for the reasons you give. It certainly is not carte blanche, If the amount is not agreed [including a process of silent agreement by not challenging an amount], they do not have the authority to take the amount.

Taking money which is not agreed is an abuse of the Direct Debit process.

Cardew

DVardysShadow wrote: »

This really is old ground, Cardew. Direct Debits are no longer for fixed amounts, they are invariable for variable amounts.

They only constitute authority to take amounts agreed between supplier and customer. And the amount is variable for the reasons you give. It certainly is not carte blanche, If the amount is not agreed [including a process of silent agreement by not challenging an amount], they do not have the authority to take the amount.

Taking money which is not agreed is an abuse of the Direct Debit process.

Hi,

Yes it is old ground, and I suppose the definition of 'agreement' is the key. However I am not sure what you mean by:

If the amount is not agreed [including a process of silent agreement by not challenging an amount], they do not have the authority to take the amount.

If my Utility company write and tell me they are increasing my DD by £xx, and I do not dispute that amount, surely I have given my agreement??

Are you saying that I need to write/contact them and signify my agreement?

<H1>What is Direct Debit?

Direct Debit is the simplest way to pay bills or make regular payments.
A Direct Debit is an instruction from a customer to their bank or building society authorising an organisation to collect varying amounts from their bank account, as long as the customer has been given advance notice of the collection amounts and dates.

</H1>

DVardysShadow

Cardew wrote: »

Hi,

Yes it is old ground, and I suppose the definition of 'agreement' is the key. However I am not sure what you mean by:

If the amount is not agreed [including a process of silent agreement by not challenging an amount], they do not have the authority to take the amount.

If my Utility company write and tell me they are increasing my DD by £xx, and I do not dispute that amount, surely I have given my agreement??

Are you saying that I need to write/contact them and signify my agreement?

By silent agreement, I mean that they write to you, advising a new amount and if you do not object [within a reasonable specified time], agreement is assumed. I am not saying that you need to write.

The point I have been labouring over the years is that the Direct Debit Mandate does not of itself indicate that any amount has been agreed nor that any process for agreement of new amounts has been complied with.

The Direct Debit Mandate is not of itself permission for a supplier to change the amount it charges a customer.

I keep on banging on about this, because suppliers and banks do bully customers over Direct Debtis - and they will get away with it increasingly if your [mis]representation of the situation has traction.

jalexa

Cardew wrote: »

If my Utility company write and tell me they are increasing my DD by £xx, and I do not dispute that amount, surely I have given my agreement??

On that point only, yes that represents "acceptance" that the next payment so collected will be the payment advised.

In respect of "agreement" that the figure so advised represents a figure correctly calculated in accordance with the particular "payment scheme" I do not accept that "10 working days silence" indicates anything more than an uninformed customer uncertain of what to do. The payment mechanism requires 10 working days notice but challenge on calculation "correctness" could *conceivably* take 8 weeks plus time for Energy Ombudsman consideration. There is a clear mismatch on timeframe.

There is a recurring theme in the forum of customers burying their head in the sand when confronted by supplier diktat. There are reports of suppliers taking in excess of 40 minutes to answer the phone and (allegedly) not answering emails. That is not reasonable behavior and could be an explanation for "silence". Then if lucky enough to make contact being BS'd.

That last allegation I *know* to be true.

Cardew

DVardysShadow wrote: »

By silent agreement, I mean that they write to you, advising a new amount and if you do not object [within a reasonable specified time], agreement is assumed. I am not saying that you need to write.

The point I have been labouring over the years is that the Direct Debit Mandate does not of itself indicate that any amount has been agreed nor that any process for agreement of new amounts has been complied with.

The Direct Debit Mandate is not of itself permission for a supplier to change the amount it charges a customer.

I keep on banging on about this, because suppliers and banks do bully customers over Direct Debtis - and they will get away with it increasingly if your [mis]representation of the situation has traction.

I really cannot see why it is misrepresentation.

I sign a variable DD mandate to my bank allowing company a to vary the amount it takes from my account. As long as they inform me in writing 10 working days before they vary the amount from last month, they have kept to their side of the agreement. I am at liberty to challenge that amount or cancel the Direct Debit.

That is exactly what I want to happen.

I also agree with Jalexa's point(I think it is his point) that if there is an error in the account, the fact I did not challenge the new DD figure does not prevent me disputing the payment at a latter date.

The BACS website gives examples of challenges to DD after money has been taken from account.

By far the most common scenario on MSE is of people not noticing the notification of a change to DD amount(often buried in small print of bill), and then thinking that the company had no right to change the amount without the bank having their permission.

In fact the OP uses the term without our 'permission'

In fact to be perfectly honest I cannot understand the point you are making.

rjjps2

For instance if a supplier wasn't allowed to alter a direct debit without Receiving permission isn't the customer then just effectively paying what they want?