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Refused a ticket on the train this morning

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245

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  • Mr_Toad
    Mr_Toad Posts: 2,462 Forumite
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    I suspect that like so many short journeys people figure that if they get on and the conductor doesn't get to you before you get off the train it's a free journey. On the days the conductor does get round you have to pay.

    It happens all the time on the Nottingham and Sheffield trams. People waiting at the Park and Ride look for the conductor then get on past where the conductor has already been. By the time the conductor has worked their way back down the tram it's in the city and they've got off, no fare and free parking!

    Another trick is if it looks like the conductor is getting close you see no end of people getting off at the next stop and walking down the tram to get back on past the conductor.

    It amazes me that they make any money at all!
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  • Clam_Abuse_2
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    rev_henry wrote: »
    If we're going down the route of berating you for it then what's wrong with the ticket machines at Preston?

    As I said, at the time the bus drops me off, I have about three minutes, if that, and being in a queue is never straight forward, is it?
    The National Rail Conditions of Carriage say:



    If it is a return journey you are liable, and entitled to pay, the return fare. There is no liability in the NRCOC to pay 2 x single fares for a return journey.

    The conductor is wrong to refuse to sell you a return ticket.

    An individual train operating company cannot impose conditions that are more restrictive than the NRCOC.

    Thanks for that.
    Mr_Toad wrote: »
    I suspect that like so many short journeys people figure that if they get on and the conductor doesn't get to you before you get off the train it's a free journey. On the days the conductor does get round you have to pay.

    It happens all the time on the Nottingham and Sheffield trams. People waiting at the Park and Ride look for the conductor then get on past where the conductor has already been. By the time the conductor has worked their way back down the tram it's in the city and they've got off, no fare and free parking!

    Another trick is if it looks like the conductor is getting close you see no end of people getting off at the next stop and walking down the tram to get back on past the conductor.

    It amazes me that they make any money at all!

    I'm sure this happens, but the train I get on is far from busy. I've been the only person on-board on some days.

    I don't mind paying in advance if that is what the rules are. If I miss my train as a result, it's annoying, but that's life.

    What has irked me is that I've been travelling like this for years and all of a sudden today I've been told that myself and all of the conductors I've met have been doing it wrong? No-one I have asked today about it, save for a couple of people on here, have heard of the rule either.
    Please explain slowly...
  • dggar
    dggar Posts: 670 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
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    2. Requirement to hold a ticket
    If you travel in a train
    (a) without a ticket; ...
    you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey.

    Fares between Preston an Lancaster seem very strange.
    Looking at return fares for Tomorrow with an arrival time of 09.00 on the National Rail site the following is displayed


    £8.00 Anytime
    Anytime : fully flexible tickets with
    no time restrictions on when you can travel.
    Perfect for people who need flexibility

    o Off-Peak : cheaper tickets for travelling
    o on trains that are less busy,
    o for example out of rush hour times
    I wonder which of these is considered the FULL RETURN FARE
  • Mrs_Ryan
    Mrs_Ryan Posts: 11,832 Forumite
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    edited 11 September 2012 at 1:12PM
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    Mr_Toad wrote: »
    I suspect that like so many short journeys people figure that if they get on and the conductor doesn't get to you before you get off the train it's a free journey. On the days the conductor does get round you have to pay.

    It happens all the time on the Nottingham and Sheffield trams. People waiting at the Park and Ride look for the conductor then get on past where the conductor has already been. By the time the conductor has worked their way back down the tram it's in the city and they've got off, no fare and free parking!

    Another trick is if it looks like the conductor is getting close you see no end of people getting off at the next stop and walking down the tram to get back on past the conductor.

    It amazes me that they make any money at all!

    I see that a lot between Station Street and Lace Market, and I've noticed that if you get on at Old Market Square going towards Station Street half the time the conductors dont bother anyway!!!

    OP, sounds like you got a jobsworth conductor.
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  • rev_henry
    rev_henry Posts: 4,959 Forumite
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    Clam_Abuse wrote: »
    As I said, at the time the bus drops me off, I have about three minutes, if that, and being in a queue is never straight forward, is it?

    I know, I was just playing devils advocate.
  • AlexisV
    AlexisV Posts: 1,890 Forumite
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    pinkteapot wrote: »
    And the reason you can't buy a ticket before you travel like everyone else is.....?

    Last time I was 'good' and bought a ticket before I boarded, the rest of the party paid about 25% less by buying direct from the conductor.
  • Stigy
    Stigy Posts: 1,581 Forumite
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    edited 11 September 2012 at 5:21PM
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    Clam_Abuse wrote: »
    If this does happen, and in all my years travelling it has about three or four times, I buy a ticket on the return journey anyway.
    So you'd buy a return ticket, on your return journey?

    It's a strange culture we have in this country where people feel they are hard done by if not allowed to buy the ticket on board the train, especially expecting the usual discounts etc. in a lot of cases.

    Just a word of warning, if you were caught by an Inspector leaving the train at your destination and walking past the last possible point at which you could have bought a ticket, assuming you hadn't managed to buy on board, it would be a very easy prosecution, as by your actions alone, intent to avoid payment would seem evident! Even without proving intent, as soon as you began your journey on the train you were in breach of National Rail Byelaw 18(1) which dictates, where ticket issuing facilities permit, you must buy a ticket for your journey BEFORE you travel on the train. There's certain expectations such as not having to queue for more than 15 minutes, but this rarely applies.

    So really, being able to buy one on board at all was good of the Guard.
  • Owain_Moneysaver
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    dggar wrote: »
    Fares between Preston an Lancaster seem very strange.I wonder which of these is considered the FULL RETURN FARE

    Some strange fares showing, but that is the fault of the National Rail ticket finder. For example £20.50 is a Lancashire Day Ranger, £58.50 is a Cumbria Day Ranger ticket. It tells you the ticket type when you add the ticket to the basket.

    Eastcoast shows £7.80 Single, £8.00 Return Standard, which is much more sensible and would be the fares applicable. £10.10 and £19.20 First.
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
  • TrickyWicky
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    Mr_Toad wrote: »
    I suspect that like so many short journeys people figure that if they get on and the conductor doesn't get to you before you get off the train it's a free journey. On the days the conductor does get round you have to pay.

    It all goes back to the days of British Rail who were known for turning a blind eye. They were also government owned and thus people saw it as a right to get their tax worth if possible.

    Despite being run by private cowboys now the network is still the governments under the guise of Network Rail and many people still don't care that the trains are running as a for profit franchise now.

    To be honest, I never wanted to see BR disbanded and since it's all gone private and the fares have rocketed, I barely use the trains now. I love our railways but they've priced me off the rails.
  • bb21
    bb21 Posts: 80 Forumite
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    As Owain Moneysaver correctly pointed out in this post, the NRCoC Condition 2 very clearly sets out the consequences of failing to pay before boarding, ie. pay the full single or return fare onboard. For the OP's journey, this would be the

    Preston Lancs - Lancaster
    Route Any Permitted
    Anytime Day Return
    £8.00

    if a return fare is requested.

    This is the most expensive return fare for this journey. The guard cannot insist on selling only single fares onboard. Virgin can have company-specific policies, however these cannot overwrite the conditions set out by the NRCoC.

    The OP's motives for buying onboard and not beforehand is irrelevant. If the guard had suspicions of fare evasion or fraud, he should have taken appropriate actions, not insisting on selling only single fares.

    Therefore in this case, the Virgin guard is incorrect.
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