A complicated tale...

Myriddin

Hi and hope someone can advise:

My contract of employment as a hospital based NHS community nurse requires me to be an owner/driver.

The hospital trust I am employed by expect all staff who use the hospital car park to buy a monthly permit. I have challenged the unfairness of this policy in writing on the grounds that this is possibly a form of indirect discrimination against staff who have to use a car to undertake their duties but have been met with indifference. As a consequence I have refused to pay for a permit and have continued to park within the grounds of the hospital on return visits to my office.

Recently APCOA have been appointed as agents for the trust and subsequently I have now received several 'invoices' for not displaying a valid permit or ticket. I intend to ignore all demands from APCOA.

However, my first question is this: If by some misfortune APCOA decide to proceed to court what would be my best defence?

And secondly, would I have any legal recourse against my employer if this situation persists; ie does this constitute indirect discrimination or, indeed, harrassment at work ?

Thanks in advance.

The_Slithy_Tove

Are you a member of a union? If so, get them to take this up on your behalf.

bargepole

Myriddin wrote: »

... However, my first question is this: If by some misfortune APCOA decide to proceed to court what would be my best defence?

And secondly, would I have any legal recourse against my employer if this situation persists; ie does this constitute indirect discrimination or, indeed, harrassment at work ?
.

Your best defence is that, as APCOA almost certainly don't own or have any propietorial interest in the car park, they have no legal standing to make offers to park or to impose charges (see VCS v HMRC).

When you get the inevitable blizzard of threatening demands from APCOA, you could consider suing them for harassment, and naming your employer as a co-defendant if you're feeling particularly militant.

Coupon-mad

Myriddin wrote: »

Hi and hope someone can advise:

My contract of employment as a hospital based NHS community nurse requires me to be an owner/driver.

The hospital trust I am employed by expect all staff who use the hospital car park to buy a monthly permit. I have challenged the unfairness of this policy in writing on the grounds that this is possibly a form of indirect discrimination against staff who have to use a car to undertake their duties but have been met with indifference. As a consequence I have refused to pay for a permit and have continued to park within the grounds of the hospital on return visits to my office.

Recently APCOA have been appointed as agents for the trust and subsequently I have now received several 'invoices' for not displaying a valid permit or ticket. I intend to ignore all demands from APCOA.

However, my first question is this: If by some misfortune APCOA decide to proceed to court what would be my best defence?

And secondly, would I have any legal recourse against my employer if this situation persists; ie does this constitute indirect discrimination or, indeed, harrassment at work ?

Thanks in advance.

Glad to see that you intend to ignore any fake PCNs in the hospital car park.

We have lots of similar threads from hospital staff, here's one:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4074869

Have a look at the advice and links already given on that thread. Devonlad (one of our posters here) works in a hospital and has ignored a few, and he knows a Doctor at his hospital who has ignored over 30 of these fake PCNs!

As far as the harassment at work stuff is concerned, yes I agree. I would be raising this in the strongest terms with your Union rep if you have one - first of all educate him/her about these not being fines at all and that APCOA have no lawful rights to 'offer' the parking already offered by the Hospital, nor any lawful standing or rights to take anyone to Court. Make sure the Union know the score about this scam so they can be more forceful over it.

Myriddin

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

Are you a member of a union?

I find the Health Unions to be toothless Lions nowadays with not even a decent roar to be heard when it's needed.

I'm actually considering initiating a collective greivance on behalf of those colleagues caught up in this unfair process. Put simply, we are asked to use our cars for work and then are penalised for doing just that - a ludicrous situation if there ever was one!

Myriddin

bargepole wrote: »

(see VCS v HMRC).

This case makes interesting reading. If my reasoning is correct then I suppose because the hospital parking policy belongs to the Trust then any claims by APCOA as their agents are invalid?

bargepole wrote: »

When you get the inevitable blizzard of threatening demands from APCOA, you could consider suing them for harassment, and naming your employer as a co-defendant if you're feeling particularly militant.

I may well do just that - I do so love a 'battle.'

mikey72

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Glad to see that you intend to ignore any fake PCNs in the hospital car park.

We have lots of similar threads from hospital staff, here's one:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4074869

Have a look at the advice and links already given on that thread. Devonlad (one of our posters here) works in a hospital and has ignored a few, and he knows a Doctor at his hospital who has ignored over 30 of these fake PCNs!

As far as the harassment at work stuff is concerned, yes I agree. I would be raising this in the strongest terms with your Union rep if you have one - first of all educate him/her about these not being fines at all and that APCOA have no lawful rights to 'offer' the parking already offered by the Hospital, nor any lawful standing or rights to take anyone to Court. Make sure the Union know the score about this scam so they can be more forceful over it.

The PPC cannot enforce the tickets.

But the hospital do have the right to refuse entry to the staff car park if they choose to, if the public cannot freely access it. You may still be able to park on the public car park, providing it's pay and display, not a barrier, and you can enter and exit freely with the genreral public and simply not buy a ticket. There is also a signed contract in force between you and the trust, and no doubt has a section covering conduct while on the hospital grounds that you need to look at.
Get your union to have a look at what you signed.

Possibly post on Pepipoo as well, as they have had other similar posts, (a flat owners being banned from the flats car park was the last one if I remember correctly)

edit - actually the landowner can ban you from the public car park, if they legally notify you of the ban.

Myriddin

mikey72 wrote: »

edit - actually the landowner can ban you from the public car park, if they legally notify you of the ban.

I'm not even sure who the landowner is for hospital sites nowadays. It used to be considered Crown property but I believe that concept no longer applies. I suppose technically, as a UK citizen, I'm a part owner.

mikey72

Myriddin wrote: »

I'm not even sure who the landowner is for hospital sites nowadays. It used to be considered Crown property but I believe that concept no longer applies. I suppose technically, as a UK citizen, I'm a part owner.

Who's selling you the monthly pass?

You'll probably find the trust have enough authority.

It may become an interesting point in the near future.

taffy056

If they ban you from the car park, then you can't do your job because of the ban, I would think that would be considered constructive dismissal. This is a tax on people working at the hospital, it's a disgrace that an nhs trust is involved in it.

Two things really cheese me off about private car parking, one is hospitals charging patients and staff for parking, when it's free in Wales + Scotland . And parking in motorway service stations over 2 hours. Both are a disgrace and should be banned completely, one is about work and patients the other about safety.

Myriddin

mikey72 wrote: »

Who's selling you the monthly pass?

It's the Acute Hospital Trust that sells permits to staff.

The situation is further complicated because I am employed by yet another trust who has contractual use of buildings and facilities within the Hospital site. In effect, I am employed by a Psychiatric Trust that operates on the premises of an Acute trust.

I suspect that the Acute trust does not have the authority to instigate disciplinary action against me directly - that remit would lie with my employing trust, and as far as I'm aware I am not in breach of any of their policies - yet!