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Ba delayed flight, lost holiday time
Comments
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Because compensation is only due if your flight was cancelled. That is what BA is (now) denying. Even if we agree that what happened to you was a rerouting, it doesn't establish the crucial issue of contention, namely that your flight was cancelled. What rerouting means in article 8 is irrelevant as far as compensation is oncerned since that article does not deal with compensation.
Not quite. It is the non-operation of a flight that was previously planned, as opposed to the operation of a flight in a manner not previously planned. In other words, a flight does not count as cancelled simply because it operates in a manner that wasn't planned (for instance by flying to a different airport), it has to not operate at all. The flight to LCY was planned and did, IMO, operate, just to a different airport.
No problem, and thanks for not taking it personally just because we disagree
Ok, good, I also wanted to make sure you didn't take it personally. I think a little healthy disagreement makes us all smarter.
I struggle with your interpretation of the non-operation portion. Only by reading into the definition extra words can you get to your meaning. The flight was not previously planned to arrive in STN. A flight that departs for and arrives at a different airport is not the same flight.
I really fail to see how you are getting to your interpretation. What is the controlling factor for determining that it operated, but did so differently than planned?
Is it the flight number that controls? If so than airline that would otherwise have had to cancel a flight but instead gets in a different plane flying on a different day could theoretically avoid "cancellation" liability by merely changing the flight number. That seems to be a rather nonsensical interpretation. Is it the aircraft that controls? Surely that cannot be the case, as the same aircraft are used on various routes and cannot all be interpreted as the same flights. Is it the route? Well the route from FAO to STN is not the same route as that from FAO to LCY. I think the only reasonable way to read into the definition is whether the flight operates between the two airports orginally planned. If it does then it can be a delay. If not it seems that it necessarily has to be a cancellation with a rerouted new flight.0 -
I struggle with your interpretation of the non-operation portion. Only by reading into the definition extra words can you get to your meaning. The flight was not previously planned to arrive in STN. A flight that departs for and arrives at a different airport is not the same flight.
I don't think I'm adding anything. This is how EU 261 defines a cancellation:
cancellation’ means the non-operation of a flight which
was previously planned and on which at least one place
was reserved.
It simply does not follow from this definition that a flight not operated as planned is cancelled. If it did, any delayed flight would be cancelled by definition. For a flight to be cancelled it has to not operate period, which simply brings us back to the issue of contention: Did your flight operate or was it cancelled? Granted, it did not operate as planned but again, that does not mean it was cancelled.
I agree with you that retaining a flight number isn't enough to avoid a cancellation. Your case, however, ticks all the boxes of a flight diversion to me. Same flight number, same physical plane, same passengers, no flight consolidation, a relatively short delay. If these circumstances don't constitute a flight diversion I don't really know what would.0 -
I don't think I'm adding anything. This is how EU 261 defines a cancellation:
cancellation’ means the non-operation of a flight which
was previously planned and on which at least one place
was reserved.
It simply does not follow from this definition that a flight not operated as planned is cancelled. If it did, any delayed flight would be cancelled by definition. For a flight to be cancelled it has to not operate period, which simply brings us back to the issue of contention: Did your flight operate or was it cancelled? Granted, it did not operate as planned but again, that does not mean it was cancelled.
I agree with you that retaining a flight number isn't enough to avoid a cancellation. Your case, however, ticks all the boxes of a flight diversion to me. Same flight number, same physical plane, same passengers, no flight consolidation, a relatively short delay. If these circumstances don't constitute a flight diversion I don't really know what would.
I don't want to belabor the point. But I do concede that part of me thinks this is an interesting discussion on semantics.
I guess what I am still hung up on is that you are trying to define this as a "diversion" but that term has no meaning in the code. There are reroutings which are specifically defined as including exactly the kind of situation that mine involved. So I think you have to concede that it was a rerouting per the definition in the code. (you might define it as a diversion for airline operational purposes, but that has no meaning in the code).
If a flight is rerouted, then it seems to me quite clear that it involves the non-operation of a flight which was previously planned. I get your point that a delay could count as a cancellation if a cancellation only meant that it operated differently from planned. But I don't see how the flight I was originally on could not be classified as cancelled. A flight that involves the filing of a new flight plane and was never intended to go to the original airport when it departs, is not the same flight as the original. A late flight could be the same flight that just leaves later than planned. Whereas a flight to an alternative airport whether on time or not is not the same flight. Thus the original flight did not operate but was instead substituted for the new alternative flight to a wholly different airport.0 -
Centipede100 wrote: »It does therefore follow that "the non-operation of a flight which was previously planned" leads logically to a cancellation.
Of course it does, that's how the regulation defines a cancellation. But you can't seriously believe that a flight not being operated *as planned* means it is cancelled. I had an hours delay coming back home a couple of weeks ago. The flight didn't operate as planned but I take it nobody would argue on those grounds that it was cancelled. It did operate, just with an hours delay. The relevant question here is whether or not a diversion automatically counts as a flight not being operated. I don't think so.0 -
Centipede100 wrote: »If not operated as planned then its a cancellation. Whether you or I seriously believe or agree with that or not, that is what the Regulation states.
I very much disagree that's what the regulation states.Centipede100 wrote: »You had an hour's delay on your flight, but I take it that the flight as planned did take off from the airport as planned and landed at the airport you expected it to as planned.
Indeed it did, that's not the issue. It did not, however, not take off according to schedule. Do you not think a departure time is part of the planned operation of a flight? If it is, then a delay counts as a cancellation according to your definition above.
If you want to interpret the definition of a cancellation in such a way that a flight not operated as planned counts as cancelled that's fine (though I find it obvious that's not what the defintion is). But you can't pick and choose. If that's your interpretation, then a delayed flight is cancelled as well since it doesn't operate as planned.0 -
The risk is you'd get a DJ who considers LCY and STN are LON airports collectively and you got back to LON as planned.Posts are not advice and must not be relied upon.0
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Centipede100 wrote: »True, but the delay in arrival in excess of 3 hours still entitles Walter4 to make a valid claim.The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.0
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The risk is you'd get a DJ who considers LCY and STN are LON airports collectively and you got back to LON as planned.
Thanks, I agree. I find it incomprehensible to the normal person that someone could interpret a flight to an airport more than an hour away from the destination airport (circa £120 taxi cab difference) could be interpreted to be the same itinerary as originally planned. But I have the impression that insiders in the industry have a vastly different view. Perhaps that's why airline customer satisfaction is so low.
I think that per the plain language interpretation of the code, that it is clear that the flight was cancelled and substituted, but I'm afraid that BA will make me go to court to get this resolved. Kind of dumb since it will end up costing them more after reimbursing for court fees and costs in addition to their own legal advisers.0 -
Centipede100 wrote: »True, but the delay in arrival in excess of 3 hours still entitles Walter4 to make a valid claim.
Very many thanks Centipede100, I see that you have been prolific in your posts regarding compensation for delays under EU261/2004 and it has been extremely helpful.
One question, do we have a list of recommended addresses to send our "notice of a claim" letter?
Specifically, I'm trying to find the correct address for BA.?
Again Many Thanks
Ross0 -
Many thanks again !0
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