Unfair dismissal of an Apprentice

marybelle01

OP - I think you are picking teh advice you want to hear and branding the advice you do not want to hear as "bad advice". Unpalatable as it may be, real life is not a series of principles, it is a series of compromises. Of course the majority of your "troublemakers" in the NHS have not been branded as such - that is generally because they have a different title to management, and that is usually "the union"! The NHS is a very different work environment, and these "troublemakers" are generally not 19 either!

If this is unfair dismissal, and if he wins a tribunal, what does he stand to gain? He has another job, so any award will be almost nothing. But people here are right - he is in an industry where word of mouth about people travels very fast and employers are not even vaguely understanding about employees who take employers to tribunals.

There are a hell of a lot of unfair things in life, and one of the life skills that everyone needs to learn is how to pick your battles. This is a battle not worth fighting - he stands to gain very little and lose quite a lot. On a very basic level - how do you think his current employer, with whom he requires two years service to make a tribunal claim for unfair dismissal, will take all this? Are you absolutely certain that they won't be one of the employers who isn't goingt o brand him as a troublemaker and let him go - because keeping it a secret isn't going to be easy. And they have two whole years to do it in...

Dunroamin

mixenvixen wrote: »

Hi Niknox,

I'm sorry to hear your son has faced such a difficult ordeal. I work for a careers service for 13-19 year olds and unfortunately I see far too often young people treated incredibly unfairly by employers.

I work a lot with apprentices and although well wished, I think some of the advice given to you on this board so far has not been entirely accurate. Which is easily done- as apprenticeships are a fairly modern thing which can often get people a little confused about rights.



This is a common mistake. The difference in wages often leads people to think that apprentices have fewer rights. Apprentice's have exactly the same working rights as other employees. This means that for employers to dismiss them, they must go through the same procedures as any other employee.



This would be a contradiction to what an apprenticeship is. An apprenticeship is a training scheme. Apprentices are not expected to be qualified, however learn throughout. This is why they get paid the lower wage.



As said before apprentices fall under the same employment laws as any other job- so therefore can not be subject to extra 'clauses'. Like most jobs if you fail to perform then you can be dismissed- however this must be following a prior warning and given the tools and opportunity to improve.



I could not agree with you more. The reason apprentices are treated so awfully- is because they are young and don't 'kick up a fuss'. Perhaps if they had more support from people like you, they wouldn't be treated so unfairly. Realistically how many carpenters in your local area are 'friends'? And can be bothered to go around discussing apprentices? The idea that practising his legal rights will ruin his career is nothing short of ridiculous, compared to the fact that he will not have to put dismissed on application forms.

It's really hard for any of us to say in a board if he was unfairly dismissed. As this is down to a number of factors. You've mentioned warnings- were these official? Or just 'this door was done a little funny'. Was he given a reason for his dismissal- apart from the letter? It doesn't sound like he had the opportunity to improve. They mentioned they wouldn't have the work for him soon anyway- sounds more like a redundancy issue to me... Is it perhaps that they are using this to get out of redundancy pay?

If I were you I would talk to ACAS instead for some official advice, as realistically we are not going to be able to tell you if it was unfair dismissal:

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

To be honest the thing which no-one seems to of picked up in all of this- which is EXTREMELY wrong- is he was not being paid fairly!!!

"If you are already 19 or over and have completed the first year of your Apprenticeship you must be paid at least the NMW rate for your age."- National Apprenticeship website.

He should have been getting paid £4.98 an hour as soon as he turned 19 and had been working there a year. If you take one thing from this ordeal Niknox please, please contact the pay and work rights helpline: 0800 917 2368 and get them to pay him back every penny they owe!!

Apprenticeships a "modern thing" - wherever did you get that idea from?

Raksha

The important thing is - does the lad want to take it further, and OP is just asking the questions he's not got the nouse to ask and helping him to form his case, or is the OP possibly hiding things from an annoyed Mum (which I would be - my lad got sacked from his Saturday job, but eventually admitted he'd not been pulling his weight), whose not going to let anyone stomp all over her little boy. But there comes a time when you have to let them fight their own battles

NikNox

Dunroamin wrote: »

That's the worry.

What's the worry? That I support my kids? We are a very close family, and are proud of that.

Savvy_Sue

NikNox wrote: »

We just want to know exactly what happened,

You may or may not succeed in that. However, I'd still say that talking to the college is worthwhile, and that may mean waiting until September, because presumably they'd want to know whether or not this is a 'good' place to send an apprentice to.

NikNox

Raksha wrote: »

The important thing is - does the lad want to take it further, and OP is just asking the questions he's not got the nouse to ask and helping him to form his case, or is the OP possibly hiding things from an annoyed Mum (which I would be - my lad got sacked from his Saturday job, but eventually admitted he'd not been pulling his weight), whose not going to let anyone stomp all over her little boy. But there comes a time when you have to let them fight their own battles

Yes he does wish to take it further and has asked both me and his dad to help. I agree about letting them fight their own battles, but I've told him we must have all the facts and that I would find out as much as I can for him. And I would be the first to stomp all over him if he wasn't telling me the truth!

Raksha

Dunroamin wrote: »

Apprenticeships a "modern thing" - wherever did you get that idea from?

Modern Apprenticeships are very different to the old days (even YTS ect of the 70's) - there is so much 'proof' required, book work and assesments, they just aren't the same animal.

NikNox

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

You may or may not succeed in that. However, I'd still say that talking to the college is worthwhile, and that may mean waiting until September, because presumably they'd want to know whether or not this is a 'good' place to send an apprentice to.

He's emailed his tutor saying he wishes to finish his NVQ and how to go about it, and thinks the email will be picked up but realises he will probably have to wait til September. But, he's also got his tutors mobile number and said if he hasn't heard from him by the end of next week then he will phone him. Hopefully his new employers will be okay with him taking an hour off every month to meet his assessor should he be able to continue.

ohreally

This employer could well be in hot water over this. Apprentices have enhanced protection especially against dismissal.

The apprenticeship contract can only be terminated early by the employer where the apprentice is guilty of serious misconduct, or has become so seriously incapacitated that it is impossible for the employer to continue to teach them; or where the business has closed or fundamentally changed in nature, again making it impossible for the training to continue. Ordinary redundancy due to a downturn in business or, a dismissal for poor performance would be a breach of contract unless it has been expressly provided for in the contract

To terminate an apprentice’s contract in anything other than these limited circumstances would leave the apprentice entitled to compensation for lost wages for the remainder of the period of the apprenticeship contract and to compensation for the value of lost training and the reduction in their future employment prospects. The compensation could therefore be fairly substantial, which can make contracts of apprenticeship a potentially significant burden for employers

I hope he was a union member.

NikNox

ohreally wrote: »

This employer could well be in hot water over this. Apprentices have enhanced protection especially against dismissal.





I hope he was a union member.

Thank you. Very interesting. Sadly he was not a union member :-(. I think we can safely say that not fitting a latch correctly or hanging a door correctly, particularly by an apprentice, constitutes gross misconduct.