Unfair dismissal of an Apprentice

NikNox

mynameistallulah wrote: »

No one has suggested that young people do not deserve to be treated fairly. However making waves at the beginning of your career, and in a relatively closed industry, will render any experience and qualifications worthless. No one wants to employ a troublemaker.

So if he has been treated unfairly and dismissed from his Apprenticeship without just cause, he should take it on the chin and just get on with his life? Sorry, but that goes against the grain of everything I was brought up to believe in, and have subseqently brought my kids up to believe in. If he is in the wrong, fair enough, but if they are in the wrong then they should be brought up on it. Someone standing up for themselves should not be held against them.

byjimini

It's incredibly unfair and he probably has a very good case, but let's be honest here, he's found another job at a time when jobs are bloody hard to find. My brother was an apprentice for Vauxhall and we had a few times when it looked as if he'd be shoved out because of work being thin on the ground, so you have my full thoughts on this.

If your son was out of work and couldn't find another job then by all means I'd say take the sods to a tribunal, but in these circumstances I say let it go and move on. Besides, they've agreed to give him excellent referrals, which is definitely going to count in his favour.

It's hard, it's absolutely hard, because no-one likes to be ripped off and treated badly, but in this case I really wouldn't let your heart rule your head.

McKneff

If he has another job I would just let him move on, to be honest.

I know you want to stick up for him and probably will for the rest of his life, but you may not know the whole story, he may have had warnings etc. 19 year olds will only tell you what they want you to know. To be honest, i think you are being a tad paranoid.

No reason why he couldnt have taken photographs of himself doing the work, cameras do have time delays on them.
Encourage him in his new job and good luck to him.

ILW

NikNox wrote: »

So if he has been treated unfairly and dismissed from his Apprenticeship without just cause, he should take it on the chin and just get on with his life? Sorry, but that goes against the grain of everything I was brought up to believe in, and have subseqently brought my kids up to believe in. If he is in the wrong, fair enough, but if they are in the wrong then they should be brought up on it. Someone standing up for themselves should not be held against them.

Nice in theory, the practise tends to be rather different. Be careful your son does not end up with a lot of principals whilst signing on every week.

mixenvixen

Hi Niknox,

I'm sorry to hear your son has faced such a difficult ordeal. I work for a careers service for 13-19 year olds and unfortunately I see far too often young people treated incredibly unfairly by employers.

I work a lot with apprentices and although well wished, I think some of the advice given to you on this board so far has not been entirely accurate. Which is easily done- as apprenticeships are a fairly modern thing which can often get people a little confused about rights.

But I am not entirely clear that this is 'unfair', nor whether an apprentice has the same employment protection as a 'normal' employee.

This is a common mistake. The difference in wages often leads people to think that apprentices have fewer rights. Apprentice's have exactly the same working rights as other employees. This means that for employers to dismiss them, they must go through the same procedures as any other employee.

If full time employment was on the basis of him being qualified, and no concerns were raised about him working alone, you don't have his contract either, then I don't think there would be much of a case to answer really.

This would be a contradiction to what an apprenticeship is. An apprenticeship is a training scheme. Apprentices are not expected to be qualified, however learn throughout. This is why they get paid the lower wage.

Employer decides that the apprentice is not for them. Usually, under the terms of most training contracts that involve college attendance/coursework, there is a clause that allows the employer to terminate if the employee fails to meet the academic criteria.

As said before apprentices fall under the same employment laws as any other job- so therefore can not be subject to extra 'clauses'. Like most jobs if you fail to perform then you can be dismissed- however this must be following a prior warning and given the tools and opportunity to improve.

We shall see I suppose. I don't understand however why people think that pursuing this and trying to find out if he was unfairly dismissed or not could make more trouble for him? Surely, in these days of recession and high youth unemployment, the rights of young people in work should be upheld (if indeed his rights have been breached). Sorry, but I will always encourage my kids to fight for what's fair.

I could not agree with you more. The reason apprentices are treated so awfully- is because they are young and don't 'kick up a fuss'. Perhaps if they had more support from people like you, they wouldn't be treated so unfairly. Realistically how many carpenters in your local area are 'friends'? And can be bothered to go around discussing apprentices? The idea that practising his legal rights will ruin his career is nothing short of ridiculous, compared to the fact that he will not have to put dismissed on application forms.

It's really hard for any of us to say in a board if he was unfairly dismissed. As this is down to a number of factors. You've mentioned warnings- were these official? Or just 'this door was done a little funny'. Was he given a reason for his dismissal- apart from the letter? It doesn't sound like he had the opportunity to improve. They mentioned they wouldn't have the work for him soon anyway- sounds more like a redundancy issue to me... Is it perhaps that they are using this to get out of redundancy pay?

If I were you I would talk to ACAS instead for some official advice, as realistically we are not going to be able to tell you if it was unfair dismissal:

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461

To be honest the thing which no-one seems to of picked up in all of this- which is EXTREMELY wrong- is he was not being paid fairly!!!

"If you are already 19 or over and have completed the first year of your Apprenticeship you must be paid at least the NMW rate for your age."- National Apprenticeship website.

He should have been getting paid £4.98 an hour as soon as he turned 19 and had been working there a year. If you take one thing from this ordeal Niknox please, please contact the pay and work rights helpline: 0800 917 2368 and get them to pay him back every penny they owe!!

NikNox

Thank you, someone who finally understands my side of the fence! It appalls me that anyone should be treated unfairly in the workplace, and as adults we can and should stand up for ourselves. I have been with the NHS for 17 years now, and in all those years I can honestly say that those who have shouted loudest have been heard, and policies have been changed. They have not been branded as 'troublemakers'! As humans, we have rights, and the rights of our young working force is no different to that of anyone else. I also think that the ethos of this very site is that people should stand up for their rights, wherever they feel that their rights have not been upheld.

I appreciate it is very difficult to comment wholly on this situation. I don't know the full facts either, and have stated that if my son is in the wrong, then fair enough. But, from what he has told me I don't believe, at the moment, that that is the case. He did receive letters stating that his work was not good enough, he thinks 2 in total, one telling him off for fitting the wrong latch and the other for a door that was hung incorrectly. Both jobs were undertaken by him on his own.

When he was dismissed, the only reason they gave him was that he had not fulfilled his criteria on his NVQ, and said there wasn't enough work for him anyway. They did tell him that he was an excellent worker, reliable etc., and promised good references.

His father and I are separated, but have remained very good friends, and he works as an Operations Director for a local Building Company. He too is shocked by this, and said to me today that he wants to involve ACAS. We have decided to wait until my son hears back from his previous employer before rethinking.

You're also right about the rate of pay, and about Apprentices having the same rights as 'normal' employees, I did find that much out myself, but he's not too bothered about raising that point at the moment. He thinks as I do, that if he can prevent someone else being treated in the same way, then 'job's a good un' so to speak.

We just need to find out the facts and go from there. Thank you for your very informative and supportive reply. There are some good guys out there

NikNox

McKneff wrote: »

If he has another job I would just let him move on, to be honest.

I know you want to stick up for him and probably will for the rest of his life, but you may not know the whole story, he may have had warnings etc. 19 year olds will only tell you what they want you to know. To be honest, i think you are being a tad paranoid.

No reason why he couldnt have taken photographs of himself doing the work, cameras do have time delays on them.
Encourage him in his new job and good luck to him.

I don't think I'm being paranoid at all. My son is actually a very honest person, probably too honest! He has good morals and respects his elders, and certainly respected his employer. In 2 years he never had a day off sick, went in half an hour early every day and often finished later than he should have. I think that a good work ethic is to be commended, and that rights should be upheld, whoever the employee is. As I have said, many times now, if he's in the wrong and we receive information which contradicts what he's told me, then I'll be the first to put my hand up and say 'okay, fair enough, you deserved to be sacked', but I know my own son and I know how hard he's worked and how proud he has been of himself. He has worked since he was 14 years old, pot washing in pubs for a pittance, then working in a chip shop every evening for 2 years before going to College. He's a good kid, and yes I AM biased, but everyone who meets him likes him, he has a good rapport with people and is a very likeable lad.

NikNox

byjimini wrote: »

It's incredibly unfair and he probably has a very good case, but let's be honest here, he's found another job at a time when jobs are bloody hard to find. My brother was an apprentice for Vauxhall and we had a few times when it looked as if he'd be shoved out because of work being thin on the ground, so you have my full thoughts on this.

If your son was out of work and couldn't find another job then by all means I'd say take the sods to a tribunal, but in these circumstances I say let it go and move on. Besides, they've agreed to give him excellent referrals, which is definitely going to count in his favour.

It's hard, it's absolutely hard, because no-one likes to be ripped off and treated badly, but in this case I really wouldn't let your heart rule your head.

Thank you. I see your point, and at the moment we don't have the full facts, well we don't have their side. He is lucky to have found another job so quickly, but he would have done road sweeping to be honest and started looking the day he was dismissed. He's certainly not a shirker and could never be described as work shy! We just want to know exactly what happened, particularly as this was a good Apprenticeship (on the face of it).

Dunroamin

NikNox wrote: »

Erm, I may be finding out information, but he's the one who will be doing the actual chasing. The email was sent from his email address. Sorry, but he may be 19, but he's my son and I will support him to the bitter end.

That's the worry.

McKneff

I applaud his work ethic, which presumably is yours too.

And I also know it is hard to stand back and see him taking knocks which, lets face it is life building and he will learn from them.

No offence is intended but when my 38 year old daughter came home temporaily I physically had to stop my self sometimes to remind me that she wan't 16 any more.

You have to remember, he is 19, an adult, let him deal with it in his way, thats the way he wants to do it, not his mums way. Your way is not wrong, its just different. Give him credit for that at least.

He may want to say to you 'Aw mum, just leave it' and you must respect that.