Friend ripped off by Phones 4 U - Advice please

robbies_gal

it isnt a new contract though if its the same phone number though so is it?

grumbler

Herongull wrote: »

It is not an upgrade to an existing contract:rotfl:

:rotfl:?!
How do you know it wasn't an upgrade? An upgrade can be done through a third party and the OP did mention upgrading.

The OP had a contract with O2 which is about to expire. He has agreed (due to deception by P4U), a new contract with P4U.

The airtime contract is with O2.

New contract period, contract with P4U not O2, different handset, different monthly payments = New contract. It isn't rocket science!

It seems to be. Upgrading implies a new period and, possibly, different payments too.

Even if the new contract was with O2 for the same handset, and same monthly payments, it would still be a new contract because it is for a new period.

What's 'upgrade' then?

P4U are not above the law (even if they think they are). If their T&C are incompatible with UK law, guess which wins?

DSR (the law) say that the cooling off period doesn't apply to upgrades. The T&C are often more generous than the law.

Not rocket science!

If P4U's T&Cs actually attempt to deny customers legal rights, they can be prosecuted for committing a criminal offence.

Not all offences of this sort are criminal.

Herongull

gabbyevs wrote: »

it isnt a new contract though if its the same phone number though so is it?

Whether or not you keep the same phone number is irrelevant.

Think about it - people keep the same mobile phone numbers for years and years. Do you really think this magically converts all the different contracts they've entered during this period into one big contract. :rotfl:

Silk

Herongull wrote: »

It is not an upgrade to an existing contract:rotfl:

If the OP has upgraded as per the OP's first post .......

Frontera2 wrote: »

Last week, my elderly friend received a call from someone claiming to be from "O2" who stated that he was due an upgrade. After a bit of a hard sell, and my friend was due to go out so was a bit flustered, he agreed to receive a Samung Galaxy S2 on a £21.50 a month contract.

Regardless of who the middle men are if it is an upgrade to an existing contract then the DSR's don't apply for the cooling off period.

If it is a new contract with new phone number then it would be a new sevice contract and DSR's apply

Herongull wrote: »

In any case, how can you possibly think the phone is "free"? The huge increases in the monthly charges are to pay for the phone.

Try asking the OP what price he was invoiced for the phone without the airtime charges ...you will find there is not a charge for the phone nor is there an invoice for one ...which is how they get round certain regulations

Herongull wrote: »

Nope! The DSRs apply to contracts for services as well as purchases.

As I said earlier ...try reading the DSR's relating to services instead of goods

By all accounts the OP has upgraded an existing contract ..all he has done is extend the existing one he had

Herongull wrote: »

Whether or not you keep the same phone number is irrelevant.

Think about it - people keep the same mobile phone numbers for years and years. Do you really think this magically converts all the different contracts they've entered during this period into one big contract. :rotfl:

I'm afraid you are wrong it's the same contract that is extended unless he changes the service provider or there is a gap in the service

Herongull

Here are some detailed information about the DSRs.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf/

All the stuff about upgrades is irrelevant for 2 reasons:

If you define an "upgrade" as a new contract in which the customer keeps the same phone number or the same network or simply one where the customer continues to use some form of mobile phone on some form of contract then it (by definition) it is an "upgrade". Similarly if you define an "teddy bear" as a new contract in which the customer keeps the same phone number or the same network (O2) or simply one where the customer continues to use some form of mobile phone on some form of contract then it (by definition) it is an "teddy bear".

But there is no exception in the DSRs for "upgrades"/"teddy bears"(as defined above)

In fact section 3.38 makes it clear that there is no exemption even for (real) upgrades.

All this stuff about upgrades is a red herring. A line spun by the cold callers who do not want people to exercise their legal rights.

The moon is not made of green cheese either.:D

Herongull

Silk wrote: »

If the OP has upgraded as per the OP's first post .......


Regardless of who the middle men are if it is an upgrade to an existing contract then the DSR's don't apply for the cooling off period.

If it is a new contract with new phone number then it would be a new sevice contract and DSR's apply



Try asking the OP what price he was invoiced for the phone without the airtime charges ...you will find there is not a charge for the phone nor is there an invoice for one ...which is how they get round certain regulations


As I said earlier ...try reading the DSR's relating to services instead of goods

By all accounts the OP has upgraded an existing contract ..all he has done is extend the existing one he had



I'm afraid you are wrong it's the same contract that is extended unless he changes the service provider or there is a gap in the service

Nope! Nope! Nope! Read the quotes in my previous posts? Study the sources that I have quoted from.

I am talking about the Consumer Protection
(Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 (DSRs) - see http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf/.

In my posts I quote from government or consumer sources such as Which? Other posters made confident statements but these completely conflict with the information in government or consumer sources.

Perhaps these posters know more than the Which? lawyers, the Office of Fair Trading, Trading standards, and the CAB?

Silk

Herongull wrote: »

But there is no exception in the DSRs for "upgrades"/"teddy bears"(as defined above)

In fact section 3.38 makes it clear that there is no exemption even for (real) upgrades.

The upgrades you mention in 3.38 is for upgrading an original order to add alloy wheels when ordering a car or added memory when ordering a new PC :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Herongull wrote: »

All this stuff about upgrades is a red herring. A line spun by the cold callers who do not want people to exercise their legal rights.

It's not a "red herring" as you call it ...as explained by myself and others an "upgrade" in this case is an extended service contract.
When the original one ends it still carries on under a month by month basis on the agreed terms unless a/ the customer cancels the contract or b/ the customer upgrades or downgrades.

To use one of your quotes ....

If you take out a pay-as-you-go or pay-monthly mobile contract at the same time, you still have the right to cancel the order and receive a full refund for up to seven working days from the day after you place the order. However, you waive your distance selling cancellation rights if you ask for the mobile phone service to start immediately.

As the contract has already been running for years and the sevice started with the original contract thus at upgrade the service starts immediately

Herongull wrote: »

Perhaps these posters know more than the Which? lawyers, the Office of Fair Trading, Trading standards, and the CAB?

I wouldn't have thought so but, some posters seem to be able to interperate them better than others on here

gas4you

Typical P4U. Always high pressure slimey salesmen/women.

From what I have read and heard they have always allegedly been dodgy, even going back to the time they were Cauldwell communications.

I would never deal with anyone except the network themselves.

We often get calls from 'orange', always a bloody Indian as well. I always say 'you are not orange, otherwise you would have all my details and not ask me any questions, so pi** off', then hang up.

Herongull

You can believe what you want to believe, but your posts may mislead others, so I will have another go trying to help you.

Silk wrote: »

The upgrades you mention in 3.38 is for upgrading an original order to add alloy wheels when ordering a car or added memory when ordering a new PC :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Exactly.

As I said, DSRs even apply to real upgrades, not just teddybear ones.:D.

Silk wrote: »

It's not a "red herring" as you call it ...as explained by myself and others an "upgrade" in this case is an extended service contract.
When the original one ends it still carries on under a month by month basis on the agreed terms unless a/ the customer cancels the contract or b/ the customer upgrades or downgrades.

After the original contract ends, the customer is on a rolling contract (month to month) until and unless he enters into another fixed term contract. You can define the new fixed term contract as an "upgrade" (or even "teddy bear") if makes you happy.

But it is not exempt from the DSRs - see below

Silk wrote: »

As the contract has already been running for years and the sevice started with the original contract thus at upgrade the service starts immediately

Even if the new fixed term contract (or "upgrade"/"teddy bear") started immediately, the DSRs makes it very clear that the person can still cancel unless they were already provided with written information about their cancellation rights before the service started- see http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf/ See sections 3.10 and 3.23.

"Different rules apply to services where the consumer agrees that the
service starts before the usual cancellation period expires. These
rules are as follows.
n Where you have supplied the required durable information before
the service starts and the consumer agrees to the service
starting before the end of the usual cancellation period, their
cancellation rights will end when performance of the service starts

if the consumer agrees that the service can start before the usual
cancellation period ends, but you do not provide the required
written information until after the service has started but
provide it in time for it still to be useful, cancellation rights will last
for seven working days after the day the consumer receives the
information. But if you finish providing the service within seven
working days after the day the consumer receives the required
durable information, cancellation rights will end on the day of
completion, or
n if you do not provide the required durable information at all,
your consumer’s right to cancel ends after three months and
seven working days counting from the day after the day on which
the contract was concluded. This applies whether or not the
consumer agrees that you can start the service before the
cancellation period ends.

Silk wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so but, some posters seem to be able to interperate them better than others on here

I'm quoting them - I leave the interpretation to government and consumer organisations. If "Interpretation" means contradicting the regulations or the goverment or consumer lawyers, then I guess some posters are better than doing this than me.

If it makes you happy to think that the OP doesn't have cancellation rights, then be happy:D

Or you could study the information provided on the DSRS for yourself and become better informed?

Guys_Dad

I have been thinking this one over a bit more and can't see what is wrong with the following logic.

Which? web site puts ones rights simply

"Your right to cancel a service you've bought shopping online
If you're buying a service, like a mobile phone contract, you can cancel up to seven working days from the day after you agree the contract terms. But if you have agreed that the service will start straight away, you give up these cancellation rights. The company should provide advance notice of this before asking you to sign the contract, explaining your rights to cancel."

OK that then gives 7 days to reject the handset, as long as the service hasn't begun. Assuming that the original contract is still in force and the "new" 24 month service contract has been added on to the original one, then the new service can not have begun.

However, if the tariff has changed from the day the upgrade was agreed - and you need to confirm this with O2 - then the quoted paragraph would apply.

Paperwork was received by OP - see post #1

I believe that the cooling off period is 7, not 14 days as some people think - 7 days from the time you receive the goods.

So, make of that what you will. I still think that exchanging the handset would be the best way forward, unless OP wants to bring a deception case. This should be easy enough from listening to the sales call - which, of course, is the only proof that OP agreed to an upgrade.