Friend ripped off by Phones 4 U - Advice please

Herongull

He may have the victim of the Mobile Upgrade Scam - see http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk/blog/2010/02/08/mobile-phone-upgrade-scam/

More information about this scam http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/mobile-phone-scams-sharp-operators-794370.html. This article is old, but it looks like the scam was one of the reasons that the distance selling regulations now covers mobile phone and their contracts.

Trying to deny people their rights under the regulations sounds like a new variant of an old scam

Guys_Dad

Hve a look here http://support.phones4u.co.uk/pe/action/km/viewelement?id=10100262


*We do not operate a returns period for Pay Month Upgrades, however, if you are unhappy with the handset selected, then we are able to discuss a potential exchange (this only applies to Pay Monthly Upgrades taken out over the phone with our Sales Team)"


Refer them to this and ask for an exchange handset.

Herongull

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Hve a look here http://support.phones4u.co.uk/pe/action/km/viewelement?id=10100262


*We do not operate a returns period for Pay Month Upgrades, however, if you are unhappy with the handset selected, then we are able to discuss a potential exchange (this only applies to Pay Monthly Upgrades taken out over the phone with our Sales Team)"


Refer them to this and ask for an exchange handset.

This does not apply in this case. This quote comes under the heading: Can I return a purchase made in store?

The relevant part of their T&C, is in the same link under the heading: How do I return a purchase made online/over the phone and purchased a Pay As You Go handset?

"In the unlikely event that you want to return your phone (including promotional items if applicable), you will need to let us know within 7 working days of the date of delivery (not including the day of delivery). You will then have another 7 days to return the purchase to us.

We can arrange for the item to be returned using a pre-paid Royal Mail bag. To do this you'll need to contact our Live Chat Team by clicking here

Your products must be returned to Phones4u undamaged with all accessories (including any products supplied as part of a promotion) and where possible the original packaging. Just keep your receipt and you will only get charged for the line rental used and any calls made if you're on pay monthly."

So you don't even have to pay for posting the phone back - they give you a pre-paid Royal Mail bag.

There is a big difference to your rights if you purchase a phone or sign up to a contract on-line or by telephone compared with doing it in a shop. This is because of the Distance Selling Regulations.

By law Phones4U should also have provided written details of the right to cancel with (or as part of) the contract, so check the wording for this information. If they don't give any details of the right to cancel, the time limits for cancelling are automatically extended.

More information about rights under Distance Selling Regulations can be found in http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/con1item.cgi?file=*adv0051-1111.txt

"The 'Distance Selling Regulations' give you the right to change your mind and cancel an order within seven working days. If you do decide to cancel, you should put this in writing, either by letter (a proof of postage certificate or even recorded delivery would be wise), or you can fax or email. A telephone call is not sufficient, unless both you and the trader agree otherwise. It is important that you have proof that a cancellation notice was both sent and received by the trader. The time limits are as follows:

goods - seven working days after the day on which the goods are received
services - seven working days after the day on which you agree to go ahead with the agreement
If a trader fails to provide you with the required information about your right to cancel and return the goods at the time of sale, but does so within three months, the cooling-off period may be extended for seven working days after the information is received. You should take advice on this."

Silk

Hi Herongull,
What you say would be quite true if it was a new contract however the argument will be that it's an upgrade to an already existing contract and so not covered.
You need to read up on the section regarding service contracts as the OP is not buying goods as the phone is free.

You will be restricted to the T&C's of Phones4u regarding returning a phone.

If the OP "had" dealt with O2 direct he would not have this problem as he would have been able to return it under their T&C's

The OP may be able to try and push for the O2 T&C's to apply but not guaranteed to work

Guys_Dad

Herongull wrote: »

This does not apply in this case. This quote comes under the heading: Can I return a purchase made in store?

Yes it does! I agree that the quote comes from under the Store purchases section, but I am not responsible for their confusing web site.

Read my quote again.

*We do not operate a returns period for Pay Month Upgrades, however, if you are unhappy with the handset selected, then we are able to discuss a potential exchange (this only applies to Pay Monthly Upgrades taken out over the phone with our Sales Team)

Strictly speaking, in law, as they have previously spelt out their upgrade policy before the bit you quoted from How do I return a purchase made online/over the phone and purchased a Pay As You Go handset?, then anything in that section will not apply to upgrades other than that defined in the previous section.

gnus

Why do people even speak to cold callers, let alone take out a contract without doing ANY research at all.

Herongull

Silk wrote: »

Hi Herongull,
What you say would be quite true if it was a new contract however the argument will be that it's an upgrade to an already existing contract and so not covered.
You need to read up on the section regarding service contracts as the OP is not buying goods as the phone is free.

You will be restricted to the T&C's of Phones4u regarding returning a phone.

If the OP "had" dealt with O2 direct he would not have this problem as he would have been able to return it under their T&C's

The OP may be able to try and push for the O2 T&C's to apply but not guaranteed to work

It is not an upgrade to an existing contract:rotfl:

The OP had a contract with O2 which is about to expire. He has agreed (due to deception by P4U), a new contract with P4U.

New contract period, contract with P4U not O2, different handset, different monthly payments = New contract. It isn't rocket science!

Even if the new contract was with O2 for the same handset, and same monthly payments, it would still be a new contract because it is for a new period.

Cold callers say all sorts of things, but it doesn't mean we should believe them. Perhaps you believe the scammers who phone up saying your computer has a virus which they can fix for a "small fee"?:rotfl:

P4U are not above the law (even if they think they are). If their T&C are incompatible with UK law, guess which wins?

Not rocket science!

If P4U's T&Cs actually attempt to deny customers legal rights, they can be prosecuted for committing a criminal offence.

Herongull

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Yes it does! I agree that the quote comes from under the Store purchases section, but I am not responsible for their confusing web site.

Read my quote again.

*We do not operate a returns period for Pay Month Upgrades, however, if you are unhappy with the handset selected, then we are able to discuss a potential exchange (this only applies to Pay Monthly Upgrades taken out over the phone with our Sales Team)

Strictly speaking, in law, as they have previously spelt out their upgrade policy before the bit you quoted from How do I return a purchase made online/over the phone and purchased a Pay As You Go handset?, then anything in that section will not apply to upgrades other than that defined in the previous section.

Strictly speaking, in law, they are not allowed to have T&C that are incompatible with UK (and EU) legislation. The law is the law!

Of course companies might find it convenient if they could flout the law by putting in whatever they want in their T&Cs. Car-hire firms could put in a T&C that overrules speed limits, drink driving laws, parking regulations? Very convenient. :rotfl:

Perhaps we can all decide that we can legally ignore all laws that we don't like? We just write ourselves T&C that say that all UK laws don't apply to us.:rotfl:

annie1975_2

gnus wrote: »

Why do people even speak to cold callers, let alone take out a contract without doing ANY research at all.

I know they should be banned,everyones sick of them.
But I think in this case, its an elderly person here and I think they have took advantage of that fact..

Herongull

Silk wrote: »

Hi Herongull,
You need to read up on the section regarding service contracts as the OP is not buying goods as the phone is free.

Nope! The DSRs apply to contracts for services as well as purchases.

The relevant parts of the above quotes are repeated:

"If you take out a pay-as-you-go or pay-monthly mobile contract at the same time, you still have the right to cancel the order and receive a full refund for up to seven working days from the day after you place the order. However, you waive your distance selling cancellation rights if you ask for the mobile phone service to start immediately. "

"The time limits are as follows:

goods - seven working days after the day on which the goods are received
services - seven working days after the day on which you agree to go ahead with the agreement."

In any case, how can you possibly think the phone is "free"? The huge increases in the monthly charges are to pay for the phone.

I'm surprised that people on this forum are so ready to believe the nonsense that cold callers spin. If cold-callers tell lies to get you to sign up to something, then more lies to keep you, then this sounds too much like fraud (a criminal offence).