Does Your Child Go To A Proper School Or An Academy?

GobbledyGook

Private schools in this country, like them or loathe them, in general tend to out perform state schools (I know there are exceptions, but in general). Many, many people (like those "poor" people the OP keeps going on about) if they could would pay for a private education for the child as it is viewed by many as the very best start in life. Those private schools that do well are allowed to hire teachers without QTS. That system of having "unqualified" teachers does these schools well.

Surely another way of looking at it is that academies now have the chance to offer their pupils the same expertise as the private schools do? Levelling the playing field a wee bit so to speak?

GobbledyGook

peachyprice wrote: »

The new policy hasn't been implemented as a solution to get rid of bad teachers nor because the QTS doesn't work, the idea is to give academies the same choice as the private sector in the way they spend their money.

Which is a pity because that is a new policy that is badly needed!

Good teachers don't get anywhere near the recognition they deserve, but bad teachers tend to get away with it far too much imo.

peachyprice

GobbledyGook wrote: »

Surely another way of looking at it is that academies now have the chance to offer their pupils the same expertise as the private schools do? Levelling the playing field a wee bit so to speak?

Goodness no, that would be looking at it in a far too positive light, that simply will not do :rotfl:

Dunroamin

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

Can we get something straight - QTS is not a course - that is a PGCE. QTS is a certificate to prove you've met the standards of a teacher.

That's why I said you get it when you've done (quite rightly corrected to "passed") the appropriate course!

thegirlintheattic

GobbledyGook wrote: »

Private schools in this country, like them or loathe them, in general tend to out perform state schools (I know there are exceptions, but in general). Many, many people (like those "poor" people the OP keeps going on about) if they could would pay for a private education for the child as it is viewed by many as the very best start in life. Those private schools that do well are allowed to hire teachers without QTS. That system of having "unqualified" teachers does these schools well.

Surely another way of looking at it is that academies now have the chance to offer their pupils the same expertise as the private schools do? Levelling the playing field a wee bit so to speak?

Does anyone have the hard statistics on how many private school teachers don't have QTS or an equivalent teaching qualification? I was always led to believe that in recent years it was a small number, particularly within the younger group of teachers. The only thing I seem to find online is the Independent Schools Council saying "the majority of new teachers enter the independent sector with QTS". This seems to go against the argument many are making here that removing the requirement for QTS will bring academies in line with independent schools.

The performance of private schools is down to a lot of factors, not just if the teacher has QTS. Indeed a study I read a while back (I'm trying to find it) showed that private school teachers had better degrees, which goes against the earlier argument about teachers without degrees being better than teachers with. Private schools also have pupils who are generally better behaved, more motivated and with parents who pay a lot of attention to education; class sizes are also a lot smaller. These factors all have an impact on the results of the students, and some are factors that state schools will not be able to change. This also raises the question of how we judge a 'good' teacher - is it just results? is it they way the interact? is it the way they explain concepts? The performance data we have is only results based, but IMHO results are not the only sign of a good teacher. A good teacher could be the one that helps his/her students get from a predicted D to a C, rather than the one producing a string of As.

If we are going to compare private schools to state schools we also have to consider in-house training. Independent schools do a lot of training in house, both for those without QTS and those with it. Are academies going to spend money training up teachers without QTS to the same standard as private schools or is it going to be a case of being thrown into the fire with a few INSET days under their belt?

Another good response to this news by the 'famous' teacher Tom Bennett: http://behaviourguru.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/train-wreck-why-lowering-qts-bar-is.html

thegirlintheattic

Dunroamin wrote: »

That's why I said you get it when you've done (quite rightly corrected to "passed") the appropriate course!

My point was there is no appropriate course to pass! QTS is seperate from the PGCE; you do not have to complete/pass ANY course to get QTS. It is a seperate qualification. There are already unqualified teachers working in many schools, working towards meeting the standards for QTS. They are not on a course.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my reply, but I think it's very important for the debate that people do not make the mistake of thinking PGCE=QTS. The PGCE is pretty much useless IMHO.

DecentLivingWage

A top degree in a chosen subject is no good to the child - it's the child that needs the knowledge , not the teacher. My son's PGCE & QTS were from the top university in it's field and he got a First! That qualification was a benchmark of excellence in the understanding of child psychology and the imparting of knowledge - sadly the new breed of lower-grade 'academies' no longer have to hire qualified teachers. He is very lucky to have been snapped up quickly by a school in London - future teachers-and even children- won't be so lucky - who knows who'll be 'teaching' our kids!

GobbledyGook

DecentLivingWage wrote: »

A top degree in a chosen subject is no good to the child - it's the child that needs the knowledge , not the teacher. My son's PGCE & QTS were from the top university in it's field and he got a First! That qualification was a benchmark of excellence in the understanding of child psychology and the imparting of knowledge - sadly the new breed of lower-grade 'academies' no longer have to hire qualified teachers. He is very lucky to have been snapped up quickly by a school in London - future teachers-and even children- won't be so lucky - who knows who'll be 'teaching' our kids!

If you'd mentioned that earlier people would have known that there was no point having any sort of debate with you, in the same way there would be no point debating this with the head of the teaching unions.

Though I would love to know how the teacher is supposed to give the children the knowledge if he or she doesn't have it themselves first.

ViolaLass

DecentLivingWage wrote: »

My son's PGCE & QTS were from the top university in it's field and he got a First!

I've just passed my PGCE. It was a pass/fail course with no option to get a first.

thegirlintheattic

ViolaLass wrote: »

I've just passed my PGCE. It was a pass/fail course with no option to get a first.

I agree with this, there is no 'first' for a PGCE. For your PGCE you do get OFSTED style ratings as in Outstanding, Good, Satisfactory and Unsatisfactory based on observation gradings by the university, but they do not appear on your transcript and have no real meaning in the outside world.