Advice needed quickly (second hand dealer problem)

pennyfrog

Hello.
I was wondering if anyone could help with a bit of advice?

On Friday hubby and I went to view a Renault Clio at a second hand dealership. We weren't expecting miracles from it- especially as it's 18 years old - but we need a car that will at least tide us over for a while (hubby's job relies on having transport).

It seemed fine at the time and we bought it for £495. On the way home, once we got about 15 mins away from the dealer, we went out onto the dual carriageway and my hubby tried to put the car into 5th- but it kept 'popping out'. Basically- all gears were fine but it won't hold in 5th. We didn't even carry on home but turned round at the next roundabout and went straight back to the dealer and reported the problem.


His response was that it would be a minor thing to fix and that if we rang in the morning he'd arrange for the mechanic to come in and fix it (a '10 minute job' according to him.)

In the end it turned out that the mechanic wouldn't be able to see until today (Monday). Hubby took the car in around lunchtime today. He got back to say that the dealer wasn't there but the mechanic had a look and said that the gearbox needs replacing completely. He said that once the dealer gave him the go-ahead he'd come and pick up the car and fix it. (Attempts to reach the dealer on his mobile were futile- either no signal or it was switched off).

I sent a text to the dealer asking him to contact the mechanic so that the work could be done asap. (We need the car for commitments this week). I'd looked up online to see if the dealer was liable for fixing the fault and found this:

'...traders frequently make reference to a warranty to get round their obligations under Sale of Goods. Although the law makes provision for the risk you take when buying second hand, the item should still function as described and be of good quality (of course the age and price of the car will be taken into account). The dealer is liable for repair of the car if it is unroadworthy, but you must give him the opportunity to do it himself before taking it to a third party and billing him. If you end up doing this and he refuses you can recoup your costs through the small claims court, but you must show that you gave him ample opportunity.'

(Taken from the Which? consumer site).

The dealer rang back and told us that he wasn't liable to replace the gear box. He said that it was working fine when he drove it and it was just 'bad luck' that it happened to us. He told us that he'd get the mechanic in to replace it and 'generously' only charge us half price (£150).
I pointed out that I thought this was wrong according to what I'd read- and ended up talking to the dealer myself. I quoted what was said and when I mentioned 'third party' and small claims, he got rather nasty and started saying that if we were going to be like that then 'good luck'; that what else did we expect from an 18 year car and that we wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court and they'd laugh us out of there.

I told him that there was no need to be rude to me and that I wasn't being difficult- I was simply going on what I understood to be the legalities.

He has stated very clearly that, as far as he's concerned, he's doing us a huge favour in offering to charge us half price. He will not carry out repairs at his own cost completely and he will not give us a refund. He says he knows 'all about Sale Of Goods and the item being fit for the use it's advertised for' but says that right up till the sale it was fine so it's 'one of those things'.

£150 is going to break us this month, to be honest- but we NEED that car working this week. We can't afford to go elsewhere and then bill him and we can't afford to ask someone else to look at it and give a report on it.

He's told us to ring back within the next couple of hours to let him know whether to pick up this gear box and book the mechanic for tomorrow morning.

I have no idea what to do about this. Is he being fair or should we be able to expect him to meet the cost of repairs or give a refund. (He says he doesn't need to offer one as it's sold 'without warranty').

If it is one of those things, we'll somehow have to just suck it up- but if not, I have no idea how to deal with this guy!

Any advice would be welcome.

Thank you.

AlexisV

With it being an 18 year old car, it would be unlikely for anyone not to be surprised at a couple of niggles. A fault with 5th gear isn't like the engine blowing up.

If the dealer is fitting a new gearbox for free and only charging you the £150 it costs (as that is what the rectification seems to be), I think that's a pretty good deal.

With it being 6 months from sale, the onus is on the seller to show that the fault wasn't present at sale. It seems like it wasn't.

Gordon_Hose

Harsh as it sounds if you desperately need your car fixing you're gonna have to pay him.

If you went to Trading Standards they'd tell you to write to him rejecting the car and giving him 28 days to repair, replace or refund. After that you have to write again warning him of impending court action giving him another substantial time frame to deal with the issue. Then you have to take him to court, paid for out of your pocket initially. Even if you win in court the chances of you actually getting a satisfactory resolution/your money back are slim, even if you secure a CCJ against him.

It's not a quick process.

muckybutt

Have a read of the Sale of goods act http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/sogaexplained

I had a dodgy car from a second hand dealer a few months back, however after the second fault in three weeks he took the car back and gave us a full refund as he wasnt prepaired to do another repair so worked out for us in the end

Good luck !

pennyfrog

I'm not sure why you think it was 6 months from sale, Alexis. As I said in my post we were driving the car home from the dealership- we never even got home before the gear problem cropped up. The fault occurred less than an hour after we purchased the car- about 15 mins after we drove it away.

I agree that an 18 year old car will end up with some niggles- and if this had happened in, for example, a few months time, we would have just complained about our bad luck and got on with having it repaired. As this happened shortly after leaving the forecourt, though, we can't help but question whose responsibility it is to meet the cost. Being told that the entire gear box is faulty and needs replacing seems a strange thing to have suddenly gone wrong minutes after buying the car.

Gordon_Hose

Faults on an older car can happen at any point in it's life. However because it's within 6 months of buying the car it is assumed the fault was there when purchased, and the burden of proof would be on the dealer to prove it wasn't.

But like I said, it's a long old process.

pennyfrog

Gordon_Hose wrote: »

Harsh as it sounds if you desperately need your car fixing you're gonna have to pay him.

If you went to Trading Standards they'd tell you to write to him rejecting the car and giving him 28 days to repair, replace or refund. After that you have to write again warning him of impending court action giving him another substantial time frame to deal with the issue. Then you have to take him to court, paid for out of your pocket initially. Even if you win in court the chances of you actually getting a satisfactory resolution/your money back are slim, even if you secure a CCJ against him.

It's not a quick process.

Sadly, I think you're right, Gordon. We do need the car urgently and unfortunately this is probably the cheapest way of getting it sorted. I have a horrible feeling that it'll be a 'chalk it down to experience' situation. Getting it repaired elsewhere will cost a lot more and the sheer length of time it'd take to go through the other methods isn't 'do-able' for us.

We have experience in the waiting game for car stuff as the reason we've had to by this at all is that hubby was rear-ended at a junction 8 months ago, writing off our lovely Almeira. The other guy was to blame (and admitted it at the time too) but our insurance payout took off our excess, (several hundred pounds) so we're still in the process of having to claim it back from the 3rd party (whose solicitors have annoyed ours with all the stalling tactics in the world) and has meant we haven't been able to afford a car of the same quality as the one we lost, so are having to buy something to make do until we get the excess and can part exchange this and save up some more to put towards it.


I seriously am considering buying a pony and trap!!!!!

My main query in all this, really is trying to work out where we stand. If nothing else, it would help for future reference when we eventually (some time this century, I hope) get the insurance excess and replace this car, so that we know where we stand- and whether or not I should say or do something in this situation.

Gordon_Hose

Well, if you had the time then you could go to consumer direct and get the letter templates to start the official ball rolling. That's all you can do though, and even with all the effort writing letters, going to court, you could still end up out of pocket.

The whole system is a shambles. I was going to go down the same route as you a few years back, and in end I gave up because I just couldn't throw money at chasing this guy through the courts only to end up with less than I started with. Like I said, even if you do get a CCJ against him, you still may end up with nothing. It's crazy.

These dodgy 2nd hand dealers know that the process is drawn out and convoluted, so much so that they can almost guarantee you'll just give up out of sheer frustration. And if you don't they'll just ignore any demands for payment.

The lesson I leaned was to never ever trust what any sort of car dealer tells you. Whether they are main dealer, 2nd hand or Joe Bloggs on his drive.

Cash-Cow_3

At least you can drive it, albeit only 4 gears. Can you not last for a week or so on 4 gears. You could then trade in at another dealer. You might get 500 quid for it!

pennyfrog

The only reason we could get the car now was because hubby is on holiday at the moment. However, he goes back on Monday and works odd hours (including alternate weekends and will be working next the weekend after returning) so needs to have a car by Monday to get there. (Lifts etc have changed now) . He works out in the sticks where there's no public transport - a trip along the motorway for quite a while then into the countryside- and if a car problem crops up, he'd have to have unpaid time to deal with it. Not viable at all right now.

It does seem a 'suck it up' situation as, being realistic, we're not likely to be able to afford to go the court route for £150 and with no guarantee of it turning out well.

Wish there was some ombudsman for flipping FCS Trade Sales!

In all honesty- other than the gearbox, it's a nice car. It's just the whole attitude and lying about responsibility that's getting to me.

I wish I'd said 'yes' to that red cape and lycra tights now.*sigh *

colino

Frankly if this guy has been trading for any length of time he shouldn't be knocking out ancient Clios at £495. It should have went to auction with the rest of the shrapnel.
Have another conversation with him and in a calm, steady manner say the fault was apparent on the way home and the only resolution is all of your cash back. Hopefully he will come to his senses and do just that. Unfortunately if he is at the lower end of the scale, maybe thats all he deals in and plays a percentage game that people don't bother with small claims and he continues on his merry way.
Don't be tempted to throw in a second hand gearbox yourself. One, that will cost you and it will be good money after bad and secondly it will be the tip of an iceberg with such an old car.
If things are at a stalemate, forget fifth and run it into the ground.