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A very long, despairing post
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Gingernutty
Posts: 3,769 Forumite
This is so long I've tried to keep everything as short and as simple as I can.
Okay big deep breath, here goes
My father, a retired self employed builder, has recently died. The beginning of March this year in fact.
He died ‘property rich and cash poor’.
About £1m rich.
Am I now a woman of substance? No.
A little history.
I’m the eldest of 3. After the funeral, Brother 2, moved to Australia with his wife to work. His employer kindly delayed his start date until after the funeral. The timing couldn’t have been more stressful.
He and his high achieving wife bought a house on the outskirts of London which is currently being rented out whilst they’re in Oz.
I’m in Wolves in a ratty, tumbledown house which looks like DIY SOS in some red light district/ASBO warzone.
I’m paying interest only and I have no back up plan either. By September I’ve got to start repaying the mortgage. The mortgage has to be repaid by September 2024. I’m scrabbling for pennies in a job which has me thinking of suicide every Monday morning. Miserable is not the word.
Brother 1 is in one of our dad’s properties with his wife and two kids.
There is a flat and there is the former family house, both in London. Years ago, in a ruse to try to avoid paying Capital Gains Tax, Dad bought the flat at auction under our late Mother’s maiden name.
However, Mum was a fruitcake. When it came to selling the flat, the solicitor took one look at her and cancelled the only sale they ever managed to line up.
As squatting was an issue at the time, and as a temporary measure, Brother 1 moved in with Mother’s blessing. I and a flatmate from another rental property moved in shortly afterwards. This was 1991.
Flatmate and I paid a small rent each, well below the market value. Brother 1 did not. Ever.
Brother 1 got a girlfriend who became his fianc!e and has been his wife now for over a decade - they have two beautiful, highly intelligent kiddies who are doing well in highly regarded, local schools.
Not once have they paid any rent on the property. They maintained it, re carpeted it, put in a new bathroom suite (the pink one was pretty awful) and generally kept the place in pretty good nick. However, no rent.
I’ve moved out, back and out again. A variety of flatmates have come and gone. Brother 1 his OH have stayed put.
Brother 1, like Dad is a self employed builder/handyman with lots of contacts, bits and pieces of work here, there and everywhere and he often helped Dad out with the ‘family firm’ whenever Dad needed it. Getting dog’s abuse the entire time. Dad never rated Brother 1 and never lost an opportunity to bad mouth him to anyone who’d listen.
Although hard working and well regarded, Brother 1 has never earned anything like the kind of money need to rent a decent place in London, let alone buy a place.
Mum died in 2002. There was a long drawn out procedure whereby Dad finally got his name on the title deeds and then nothing much happened.
There is an added complication with the flat. With the title of the flat comes the freehold to the property. The leaseholder for the downstairs flat has a short lease but can’t afford to pay to have the lease extended.
The old family home is just around the corner from the flat. Dad’s health started failing and the house deteriorated with him.
In fact, the squalor was pretty dire. :eek:
After various stays in hospital, Dad eventually ended up in a nursing home, which in London was expensive.
About £1000 per week expensive. :eek:
Brother 1 had the idea of moving his family to the house, getting the flat ready and then renting the flat out to help cover the nursing home fees.
This took a long time and took a lot of money.
I was Receiver for my late Uncle. He died in February 2010 and I took on the probate. There was a ‘largish’ amount of cash which was dispersed to Uncle’s surviving brother, two cousins and us.
All of Brother 1’s inheritance and more went on bringing the house and the flat up to scratch and moving the family out to the house.
Then Dad died. At the funeral, a family friend recommended a solicitor and after the dust settled, we set about the probate.
This is where it all goes wrong.
Dad’s will is unequivocal. The estate must be dispersed equally between the three of us after debts and taxes.
Brother 1 seems to think there is room for negotiation.
During all this, the solicitor has announced his retirement, making us his last case. He has also started a small war with the estate agent that Brother 1 uses as a lettings agent.
Apparently the probate valuation isn’t up to much and the solicitor is contacting a solicitor friend who will recommend a local surveyor to perform a probate survey.
The tenants have moved out, leaving the flat in a bit of a state which Brother 1 needs to repair and they have also left one or more utility bills unpaid.
The first instalment of the Inheritance Tax is due on the 30th September 2012.
I must reiterate that we have no money to pay for any of this. All the value of the estate is in Dad’s properties. As far as I can work out, we can’t pay the solicitor let alone his friend or the surveyor.
Brother 1 has had the genius idea that we can pay the Inheritance Tax in instalments with a 3% interest rate by keeping the flat let AND keep the properties.
At the end of all this, he wants to be able to move back into the flat with his family, as any inheritance he receives will not buy anywhere around where they currently live and he wants to stay local.
Of course, no share of the inheritance is/will be equal to the value of the flat. So Brother 1 is effectively saying that he’ll be getting a bigger share of the estate than he is entitled to according to the terms of the will.
Today, Brother 2 has emailed with the reminder that Capital Gains Tax is due on any rental income that we receive from the flat.
And that, frankly, has been the final straw for me. I remember being told, but had utterly forgotten this.
The solicitor told us this in the meeting we had with him. As soon as Dad died, the rental income from the flat became our income. However, this rental income is subject to 18% Capital Gains Tax.
Brother 1’s plan to use the rental income to pay the Inheritance Tax does not take into account the Capital Gains Tax that all three of us are now liable for.
It goes without saying that Brother 1 and the Tax Man are relative strangers and paying tax has been a little hazy to say the least.
So we’ll be paying 18% interest, on money we’ll never see let alone directly benefit from.
I’m already skint and wondering where the money’s going to come from to pay for the roof over my head.
£2000pcm rent = £24,000pa
£24,000pa/3 = £8000pa for each of us
18% of £8000 = £1440pa Capital Gains Tax.
Emails are few and far between from the Brothers or the solicitor, the estate/lettings agent are maintaining ‘radio silence’ to all but Brother 1, I don’t know how much money is where and I honestly don’t know what to do.
Part of me is all for the September deadline to come and for Brother 1 to see the problems his plan is causing.
Part of me is wanting to go to London, get everyone involved in one room and set about banging their heads together.
A large portion of my stress is caused by not knowing how much, who, what, when or anything.
I am in despair, I really am. I don’t know what to do. Where's the "bawling your eyes out" smiley when I need it?
Okay big deep breath, here goes
My father, a retired self employed builder, has recently died. The beginning of March this year in fact.
He died ‘property rich and cash poor’.
About £1m rich.
Am I now a woman of substance? No.
A little history.
I’m the eldest of 3. After the funeral, Brother 2, moved to Australia with his wife to work. His employer kindly delayed his start date until after the funeral. The timing couldn’t have been more stressful.
He and his high achieving wife bought a house on the outskirts of London which is currently being rented out whilst they’re in Oz.
I’m in Wolves in a ratty, tumbledown house which looks like DIY SOS in some red light district/ASBO warzone.
I’m paying interest only and I have no back up plan either. By September I’ve got to start repaying the mortgage. The mortgage has to be repaid by September 2024. I’m scrabbling for pennies in a job which has me thinking of suicide every Monday morning. Miserable is not the word.
Brother 1 is in one of our dad’s properties with his wife and two kids.
There is a flat and there is the former family house, both in London. Years ago, in a ruse to try to avoid paying Capital Gains Tax, Dad bought the flat at auction under our late Mother’s maiden name.
However, Mum was a fruitcake. When it came to selling the flat, the solicitor took one look at her and cancelled the only sale they ever managed to line up.
As squatting was an issue at the time, and as a temporary measure, Brother 1 moved in with Mother’s blessing. I and a flatmate from another rental property moved in shortly afterwards. This was 1991.
Flatmate and I paid a small rent each, well below the market value. Brother 1 did not. Ever.
Brother 1 got a girlfriend who became his fianc!e and has been his wife now for over a decade - they have two beautiful, highly intelligent kiddies who are doing well in highly regarded, local schools.
Not once have they paid any rent on the property. They maintained it, re carpeted it, put in a new bathroom suite (the pink one was pretty awful) and generally kept the place in pretty good nick. However, no rent.
I’ve moved out, back and out again. A variety of flatmates have come and gone. Brother 1 his OH have stayed put.
Brother 1, like Dad is a self employed builder/handyman with lots of contacts, bits and pieces of work here, there and everywhere and he often helped Dad out with the ‘family firm’ whenever Dad needed it. Getting dog’s abuse the entire time. Dad never rated Brother 1 and never lost an opportunity to bad mouth him to anyone who’d listen.
Although hard working and well regarded, Brother 1 has never earned anything like the kind of money need to rent a decent place in London, let alone buy a place.
Mum died in 2002. There was a long drawn out procedure whereby Dad finally got his name on the title deeds and then nothing much happened.
There is an added complication with the flat. With the title of the flat comes the freehold to the property. The leaseholder for the downstairs flat has a short lease but can’t afford to pay to have the lease extended.
The old family home is just around the corner from the flat. Dad’s health started failing and the house deteriorated with him.
In fact, the squalor was pretty dire. :eek:
After various stays in hospital, Dad eventually ended up in a nursing home, which in London was expensive.
About £1000 per week expensive. :eek:
Brother 1 had the idea of moving his family to the house, getting the flat ready and then renting the flat out to help cover the nursing home fees.
This took a long time and took a lot of money.
I was Receiver for my late Uncle. He died in February 2010 and I took on the probate. There was a ‘largish’ amount of cash which was dispersed to Uncle’s surviving brother, two cousins and us.
All of Brother 1’s inheritance and more went on bringing the house and the flat up to scratch and moving the family out to the house.
Then Dad died. At the funeral, a family friend recommended a solicitor and after the dust settled, we set about the probate.
This is where it all goes wrong.
Dad’s will is unequivocal. The estate must be dispersed equally between the three of us after debts and taxes.
Brother 1 seems to think there is room for negotiation.
During all this, the solicitor has announced his retirement, making us his last case. He has also started a small war with the estate agent that Brother 1 uses as a lettings agent.
Apparently the probate valuation isn’t up to much and the solicitor is contacting a solicitor friend who will recommend a local surveyor to perform a probate survey.
The tenants have moved out, leaving the flat in a bit of a state which Brother 1 needs to repair and they have also left one or more utility bills unpaid.
The first instalment of the Inheritance Tax is due on the 30th September 2012.
I must reiterate that we have no money to pay for any of this. All the value of the estate is in Dad’s properties. As far as I can work out, we can’t pay the solicitor let alone his friend or the surveyor.
Brother 1 has had the genius idea that we can pay the Inheritance Tax in instalments with a 3% interest rate by keeping the flat let AND keep the properties.
At the end of all this, he wants to be able to move back into the flat with his family, as any inheritance he receives will not buy anywhere around where they currently live and he wants to stay local.
Of course, no share of the inheritance is/will be equal to the value of the flat. So Brother 1 is effectively saying that he’ll be getting a bigger share of the estate than he is entitled to according to the terms of the will.
Today, Brother 2 has emailed with the reminder that Capital Gains Tax is due on any rental income that we receive from the flat.
And that, frankly, has been the final straw for me. I remember being told, but had utterly forgotten this.
The solicitor told us this in the meeting we had with him. As soon as Dad died, the rental income from the flat became our income. However, this rental income is subject to 18% Capital Gains Tax.
Brother 1’s plan to use the rental income to pay the Inheritance Tax does not take into account the Capital Gains Tax that all three of us are now liable for.
It goes without saying that Brother 1 and the Tax Man are relative strangers and paying tax has been a little hazy to say the least.
So we’ll be paying 18% interest, on money we’ll never see let alone directly benefit from.
I’m already skint and wondering where the money’s going to come from to pay for the roof over my head.
£2000pcm rent = £24,000pa
£24,000pa/3 = £8000pa for each of us
18% of £8000 = £1440pa Capital Gains Tax.
Emails are few and far between from the Brothers or the solicitor, the estate/lettings agent are maintaining ‘radio silence’ to all but Brother 1, I don’t know how much money is where and I honestly don’t know what to do.
Part of me is all for the September deadline to come and for Brother 1 to see the problems his plan is causing.
Part of me is wanting to go to London, get everyone involved in one room and set about banging their heads together.
A large portion of my stress is caused by not knowing how much, who, what, when or anything.
I am in despair, I really am. I don’t know what to do.
Where's the "bawling your eyes out" smiley when I need it?
:huh: Don't know what I'm doing, but doing it anyway... :huh:
0
Comments
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Leave everything to the solicitor. The properties will have to be sold so all of you can inherit your fair shares of the estate. If brother 1 thinks he can acquire any of the properties he will have to pay a market-rate to the estate for it. It is the solicitor's responsibility to disperse the funds according to the will and that's that.
Your brother can come up with all the genius schemes he can think of but it's not his call. The solicitor has a legal responsibility to the estate. His fees and those of the surveyor will be paid from the estate before you or your siblings will get your inheritances.0 -
Seems simple to me - sell the properties and split the money. There's nothing else to be done.0
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The solicitor involved with the probate will have absolutely no interest in getting involved with a dispute between you and your siblings about who gets which property, and especially anyone having a sense of entitlement to whatever in lieu of any work they may have done on them.
That's not the way it works. The Inheritance Tax cannot be paid until the properties are liquidated into cash. Leave that issue where it belongs: with the solicitor.0 -
BitterAndTwisted wrote: »Leave everything to the solicitor. The properties will have to be sold so all of you can inherit your fair shares of the estate. If brother 1 thinks he can acquire any of the properties he will have to pay a market-rate to the estate for it. It is the solicitor's responsibility to disperse the funds according to the will and that's that.
Your brother can come up with all the genius schemes he can think of but it's not his call. The solicitor has a legal responsibility to the estate. His fees and those of the surveyor will be paid from the estate before you or your siblings will get your inheritances.NewKittenHelp wrote: »Seems simple to me - sell the properties and split the money. There's nothing else to be done.
It does sound simple, however, Brother 1 is refusing to budge, effectively using the wife and kiddies as a human shield/emotional blackmail tool.
I can't deny having some sympathy for his position - the sale of the properties would effectively leave him and his family homeless in an expensive area. The inheritance wouldn't pay for a decent place around there. It's his and Dad's 'base of operations', most of their business contacts live around there as well.
I would be prepared to take half the proceeds of the house with Brother 2 and Brother 1 could have the flat but that's not allowed under the terms of the will and Brother 2 would have to agree to that plan.:huh: Don't know what I'm doing, but doing it anyway... :huh:0 -
Brother 1 will have to do what the rest of us do and take no more than he is owed and buy somewhere to live in an area that he CAN afford.Make £25 a day in April £0/£750 (March £584, February £602, January £883.66)
December £361.54, November £322.28, October £288.52, September £374.30, August £223.95, July £71.45, June £251.22, May£119.33, April £236.24, March £106.74, Feb £40.99, Jan £98.54) Total for 2017 - £2,495.100 -
Doesn't matter if Brother 1 is refusing to budge - he will have no choice in the matter.
He will be forced to move if necessary.0 -
Gingernutty wrote: »It does sound simple, however, Brother 1 is refusing to budge, effectively using the wife and kiddies as a human shield/emotional blackmail tool.
I can't deny having some sympathy for his position - the sale of the properties would effectively leave him and his family homeless in an expensive area. The inheritance wouldn't pay for a decent place around there. It's his and Dad's 'base of operations', most of their business contacts live around there as well.
I would be prepared to take half the proceeds of the house with Brother 2 and Brother 1 could have the flat but that's not allowed under the terms of the will and Brother 2 would have to agree to that plan.
It is that simple. Brother 1 doesn't have a leg to stand on. Your father's wishes are clear, so either your brother tows the line and accepts that he'll have to live within his means for a change, or he will get nothing when the estate has been eaten up by legal and other fees. He is responsible for housing his children, not you or your brother.0 -
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Let's get this straight. You have daily suicidal thoughts as a result of your liabilities-work- financial position, but are willing to just hand over tens of thousands of pounds to your brother, who CHOSE to spend over a decade setting up house and offspring in an area where he knew the house prices.
He has not offered you any recompense over the long term, or if they decide to sell said property and move to Canada/Australia/whatever. Any profit will be theirs, thank you very much?
It's your choice, but you seem to be recognising blackmail and stroppy behaviour, and yet still allowing it to take precedence over your legal rights and mental health.0 -
Gingernutty wrote: »How can he be forced to move?
The flat will become the subject of a probate sale, he'll have no choice but to move as the new owners won't allow him to stay there!Make £25 a day in April £0/£750 (March £584, February £602, January £883.66)
December £361.54, November £322.28, October £288.52, September £374.30, August £223.95, July £71.45, June £251.22, May£119.33, April £236.24, March £106.74, Feb £40.99, Jan £98.54) Total for 2017 - £2,495.100
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