Petrol prices on the rise again

wotsthat

wymondham wrote: »

Not sure if this adds anything to the thread, but heard on the radio yesterday that Petrol engines are now cheaper to run than Diesel due to recent efficiency improvements, the continued higher cost of diesel cars and the higher diesel fuel prices..

I think they said you'd have to be be doing 15 or 20k a year before diesel proved cheaper??

When I last bought a car I set up a spreadsheet with columns for each of the cars I was looking at and calculated the running costs of each.

I ended up with a petrol engine and calculated that it would be cheaper for me and my employer. That was based on 30k miles/ year.

As it turns out the diesel engine would have turned out to be cheaper as, since buying, my employer has extended the time that cars need to be kept for and I've never achieved the mpg I thought I would.

20k year sounds like a good rule of thumb for being the point when diesel becomes a better choice. I've driven both and found that advertised mpg figures for diesels have tended to be easier to be closer to reality.

dawyldthing

I got a taxi the other day and was saying about this to the taxi driver. I remember when it was reaching a pound and there was absolute uproar, huge lorries barracading motorways and true outrage. Now, 4 years or so on, and its 1.40 in most areas, and nothing seems to be said or done about it

Graham_Devon

wymondham wrote: »

Not sure if this adds anything to the thread, but heard on the radio yesterday that Petrol engines are now cheaper to run than Diesel due to recent efficiency improvements, the continued higher cost of diesel cars and the higher diesel fuel prices..

I think they said you'd have to be be doing 15 or 20k a year before diesel proved cheaper??

I read that report too, and what they missed is diesel now costs huge amounts to maintain.

EGR's clogging up (£200-300), DPF's needing replacement depending on driving style anything from 50-100k (£800-1,200), DMF and clutch failing quicker than conventional clutches, anything from 20-90k (£700-£1,100). Turbo's dying due to refinement oils making them fragile. 1.6 diesels being really prone to failure at 40-90k (£700).

Bar the EGR, petrols don't have the above in the main, though some modern petrols are having turbos bolted on. Petrols have EGR valves, but they don't in the main clog up as petrol doesn't produce carbon to block things up.

A quick search on google will throw all of these problems up.

Diesels are not what they used to be. After driving diesels for about 6 years, I've gone back to petrol. Dealers are now "supposed to" ask about your driving habits before selling you a diesel for these reasons, as people are getting caught out by doing lower mileage and wrecking these items prematurely. Though as always, depends on your saleperson.

I've personally had the DMF and DPF go on me, and the bills were eye watering. Never again.

The old diesels, pretty much anything before 2002 (though some diesels built up until around 2009 don't have all the items above) were the best. Wish I'd never got rid of two of mine that didn't have all the nonsense on them.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I read that report too, and what they missed is diesel now costs huge amounts to maintain.

EGR's clogging up (£200-300), DPF's needing replacement depending on driving style anything from 50-100k (£800-1,200), DMF and clutch failing quicker than conventional clutches, anything from 20-90k (£700-£1,100). Turbo's dying due to refinement oils making them fragile. 1.6 diesels being really prone to failure at 40-90k (£700).

Do diesels really cost significantly more to maintain?

I've covered at least 300,000k in diesels and don't even know what an EGR, DPF or DMF is let alone had one fail. Never had a new clutch in any car, petrol or diesel, for over 20 years.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

Do diesels really cost significantly more to maintain?

I've covered at least 300,000k in diesels and don't even know what an EGR, DPF or DMF is let alone had one fail. Never had a new clutch in any car, petrol or diesel, for over 20 years.

Yes, definately.

As stated, I wish I had kept my old 1.9TDI golf (over 200k on the clock and wouldn't die) or even my old Vectra (2004), as it never ever went wrong, though I did have the no frills taxi version.

The key is when the car was made, and by who as to what nonsense it's got to hit Euro requirements.

If you drove around in a 1996 VW diesel, you would simply write me off as insane.

If you drove around in a ford focus 2006 1.6 TDCI 110bhp, you'd be nodding in agreement.

For example, Honest John had the MK2 Ford Focus as a five star car for years. It's only since the horror stories of massive bills have come aloing that it's been enough for the company (Honest John) to knock it back to 3 stars. And that's happened across a lot of cars, specifically BMW Mini, Pug's, Renaults, Citreons, Fords.

Ford Focus MK2:

Bland styling. Estates lack sufficient sound proofing. Turbo failure increasingly common on high mileage DV6 1.6 TDCIs. DMF and DPF failures can also make a cheap Focus diesel very expensive. Downgraded two stars because of this.

If it's a common rail diesel, which most newer ones now are, as they have to be thanks to Eurocrats, make sure you have a deep wallet. They are simply being sold on lower road tax and higher MPG. But that's not the whole story and I expect to see a LOT more about miss selling in the papers in the next 5 years.

BBC watchdog have reported on it, and they only reported on the DPF, not the rest of the stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2011/10/diesel_particulate_filters.html

Watchdog has received over two hundred complaints about problems concerning diesel particulate filters. And it's a problem that affects diesel cars made by most manufacturers. Some drivers have had to pay hundreds of pounds to have their filters cleared whilst one customer needed a replacement costing over £1000.

Heres a decent thread about all the modern diesel costs and reliability, with real people and real world figures.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=858164&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Modern+diesel+reliablity&mid=0

RenovationMan

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I'd forgotten I'd written that. I was quite proud of that post at the time.

Still, finding it from God know's when and posting it here, along with all the Graham stalking isn't really helping your case.


I am starting to think you are compiling dossiers on people.

Nope, just remembering that you have a 'thing' with Hamish and doing a 2 second search on your username and the word 'hamish'.

Nice try and deflecting attention away from your own obsession with hamish, and I might also suggest your own obsession with old people (baby boomers).

Shall we talk about your Gerontophobia, or can I get back to my discussion with Graham?

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Heres a decent thread about all the modern diesel costs and reliability, with real people and real world figures.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=858164&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Modern+diesel+reliablity&mid=0

That's a good site. It reminds me of here - it's like bulls/ and bears but with petrolheads and oilburners.

I wonder about the logic of saying a new Ford Focus diesel is going to cost more in maintenance than, say, a 1996 VW Golf but in reality that won't be choice many are looking at. Most people will be looking at, say, a new Ford Focus diesel and comparing against a Ford Focus petrol or, if buying used, a car in the same peer group.

One way to see whether one is more expensive to maintain than the other is to compare the cost of warranties. If the equivalent diesel is significantly more expensive to maintain there'll be a difference in the cost. I've just plugged in some details on Warrantywise and for an identical vehicle other than fuel type they cost exactly the same.

My anecdotal evidence is that there's not much in it as far as maintenance is concerned. I think as much is about whether you've just got 'one of those cars' as it is petrol vs diesel.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

That's a good site. It reminds me of here - it's like bulls/ and bears but with petrolheads and oilburners.

I wonder about the logic of saying a new Ford Focus diesel is going to cost more in maintenance than, say, a 1996 VW Golf but in reality that won't be choice many are looking at. Most people will be looking at, say, a new Ford Focus diesel and comparing against a Ford Focus petrol or, if buying used, a car in the same peer group.

One way to see whether one is more expensive to maintain than the other is to compare the cost of warranties. If the equivalent diesel is significantly more expensive to maintain there'll be a difference in the cost. I've just plugged in some details on Warrantywise and for an identical vehicle other than fuel type they cost exactly the same.

My anecdotal evidence is that there's not much in it as far as maintenance is concerned. I think as much is about whether you've just got 'one of those cars' as it is petrol vs diesel.

Well I'm generally focusing on second hand, 3-4 year olds cars bought by private owners. I would suggest the vast majority of private car owners buy second hand.

Buying new is a different kettle of fish, as you have warranties anyway.

A third party warranty simply won't cover any wear and tear items. The DMF is a wear and tear item. The DPF is a wear and tear item. (It's part of the 75k service list for ford, at £900, 100k for Pugs and Citreons, 80k for VAG group).

The EGR won't always be covered, even under a comprehensive warranty. For example, Warranty Direct don't cover it on their main policy which covers "everything". To cover the EGR, you have to buy a bolt on to the policy. So for Warrantydirect, you have to add the "airbag and emissions" cover to your policy. That add's another £100 to the policy, and comes with caveats, such as you HAVE to pay for diagnostics out of your own pocket every time. Diagnostics were £102 the last time I instructed VW to do it for my injectors on a 140bhp tdi. You KNOW when your EGR is flucked, but you HAVE to go through the diagnostics process, which is infuriating.

This won't come as standard with any policy on cars over 4 years old. It's only fully included in their top of the range product, which won't be available if the car is over 4 years old.

The key, for me, is when diesel mechanics revert to petrol for their own cars. As that thread details, there are 2 full diesel specialists, who can't reccomend modern diesel to themselves, let alone others for second hand cars doing under 30k a year.

I know a hell of a lot about this subject, and could go on and on. I know several people, including one only yesterday who has a 2.2k bill for injectors on a 56 plate, 56k miles Audi A6.

The only diesels I would go for now is a VAG SDI lump (No EGR, turbo or DMF)....a 1.8TDI Ford Lump (no DPF), or a 1.9TDI PD VAG lump (No DPF on the majority over 2004 plates....though some later ones had them fitted as they wouldn't have been allowed to sell them otherwise).

I'm currently petrol after 7 diesels in a row. Crying at the MPG, not much liking the lack of turbo, but am liking the simplicity of the engine.

One of our area managers had a Nissan Qashqai 1.6 diesel. Did 165k in it in 3 (and a bit) years. It's now been scrapped by Nissan themselves as it was uneconomical to repair any further. It had already had a new turbo, full set of injectors, complete engine strip down and overhall and DPF. Was at the point where the repairs in that time cost more than a new car on the forecourt.

wotsthat

Next time I change I'll look into it in more detail.

Given the higher than average mileage being covered I'm seriously considering going back to diesel. I want a turbo back too!

Graham_Devon

And as I can go on and on about this....heres my list.

1996 1.9TDI Golf
Bought at 110k miles, sold at 226k miles.
Repairs...Bushes, suspension, back box.
Should never have sold it, but bodywork was showing it's age and I wanted something that didn't make me look like a peasant.

2004 2.0DTI Vectra
Bought at 74k miles, sold at 106k miles.
Repairs...Glow plugs
Again, shouldn't have sold. Was just slow and could afford something better.

2005 VW 2.0 GTTDI
Bought at 71k miles, sold at 96k miles.
Repairs...Nothing
Only sold to split into 2 cars (the vecta above being one of them)

2007 VW 2.0 GTTDI DSG
Bought at 76k miles, sold at 92k miles
Repairs...One injector (£600), EGR (£310), Driveshaft (£590)
Sold as had a quote for mechatronics unit at £2,200

2005 Pug 1.6 HDI
Bought at 75k miles, sold at 81k miles
Repairs...Clutch & DMF (£720), New turbo (£650), EGR (£0, but was never right after being cleaned several times. Second turbo (£650), ARB links (£80)
Sold as apart from clutch, all above was done under warranty from dealer, but had had enough. DPF also needed replacement (£850), as engine light was on constantly. Looked into getting the DPF removed at £350. Worst car I ever had...all diesel issues bar the ARB links. Lost the £720 on this car I paid for the clutch and DMF, but that's life.

The difference being, the pug and 2007 golf were both low emission Euro target setups. All the rest, werent. The petrol car I have now seems OK< bar the wheel bearings needing attention, which I'll sort out one weekend.

Dad had a mobility Citron 1.6 C$ grand picasso thingy. DMF failed at 26k miles. Replaiced under warranty. His peugeot 5008 at 14k miles went back and had EGR replaced under warranty and recently had the emissions light on. Don't know what this was in the end, but dealer had it for a day.