UKPC and management company

tospig

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone one here for all the advice and information on what to do regarding a PPC invoice. Rest assured I am currently ignoring 3 invoices from UKPC and ticking off the letters as they arrive.

I am now trying to make the property management company (PMC) for my block of flats understand how UKPC 'enforce' the parking 'regulations' and have voiced a lot of the points on this forum (and pepipoo) to them, but they still don't quite get it.

The PMC have asked UKPC for a response (and cc'd me into the email) to some of my points (e.g. that they are invoices and not fines, their tactic of sending threatening letters to the RK, needing to prove who was driving, etc.) so it will be interesting to see what UKPC have to say. I'm expecting an answer soon so will let you know how it goes.

SodG24

tospig wrote: »

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone one here for all the advice and information on what to do regarding a PPC invoice. Rest assured I am currently ignoring 3 invoices from UKPC and ticking off the letters as they arrive.

I am now trying to make the property management company (PMC) for my block of flats understand how UKPC 'enforce' the parking 'regulations' and have voiced a lot of the points on this forum (and pepipoo) to them, but they still don't quite get it.

The PMC have asked UKPC for a response (and cc'd me into the email) to some of my points (e.g. that they are invoices and not fines, their tactic of sending threatening letters to the RK, needing to prove who was driving, etc.) so it will be interesting to see what UKPC have to say. I'm expecting an answer soon so will let you know how it goes.

Are you the leaseholder ? If so it might pay to look at your lease and see if your entitled to a parking space. Regardless you should write to PMC and state that as a leaseholder that you do not accept and won't be bound by the T&Cs of UKPC.

Stephen_Leak

The only people to suffer when a building management company bring in a private parking company are the residents. I can't wait for mine to make the same mistake. They won't know what hit them.

Have you advised them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by either of them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

Unless it’s a condition of the lease, you can opt out of any parking scheme.

muckybutt

I would also point the management company in the direction of the VCS transcript so they can read that ukpc or any other ppc for that matter, have any claim in law to charge and pursue for issued invoices whilst operating on behalf of a client. See the letters thread at the top of this page and look at VCS transcript.

tospig

I am the leaseholder and do have a space.
The tickets were issued to a car that they assessed as 'not being in the confines of a bay' or some words to that effect.

SodG24 wrote: »

Regardless you should write to PMC and state that as a leaseholder that you do not accept and won't be bound by the T&Cs of UKPC.

Does this work, is it likely to affect whether I receive a ticket or not?

tospig

Stephen_Leak wrote: »

Unless it’s a condition of the lease, you can opt out of any parking scheme.

Thanks, I'll double check the lease.

Mrs_TP

Advice please! (I known this will be long-winded, but please bear with me!)

I received a PCN from UKPC on Monday, 9/4/12 - Easter Monday.

I work for NHS Direct, and was on a 10 hour shift each day that holiday weekend. The building I work in is situated on a private complex, between a Tax Credits office, and a local college building (ATC) - neither of which were open at all over the holiday period. The majority of the parking bays outside these office blocks are marked: NHSD; ATC; TAX etc.

As you would expect, the nature of our business dictates that more staff are needed during these periods to cover the vastly increased incoming calls from Joe Public nationwide. Consequently, parking on the day in question was a particular problem - even at 6:30am, when I arrived to begin my shift. The only space available at that time was the 1st ATC bay, next to the NHSD ones. Again, taking into account that there was NO OTHER BUILDING/COMPANY in the vicinity operating or even open over the Easter weekend, I really didn't believe that using that space on that day, and at that time, would prove to be a problem. Oh, how wrong I was! Upon finishing a very stressful & busy shift, I returned to my car to find the UKPC PCN on the windscreen. Great!

Anyway, I was more than a little miffed, to say the least, and the following day registered an online appeal.

When I came to work the following shift, I was amazed to hear of a number of other staff (nurses & health advisors) who had also received PCN's during that weekend for using ATC spaces. At this point, I was notified by my superiors that none of us were to pay these fines, as the management would be disputing them directly with ATC themselves. This we all duly did - or didn't, I suppose!

Basically, the upshot has been, after much to-ing anf fro-ing, our management were led to believe by ATC management that out of "good faith" the fines would be rescinded.....but then that the CEO of ATC had decided against it, and that the monies should be paid. By which time the fine amounts had risen to now £90 each......with one nurse even forking out £150 out of pure fear, as she had received a letter from a debt collection agency!!

Our bosses have even supplied us all with a copy letter stating that any delay in payments was not our fault, and was solely due to the slow communication between the management teams, and that therefore we should be allowed to revert back to the original £60 fee.

Unfortunately, UKPC are still sending letters & final demands confirming that they have been instructed by ATC to do so.

I only hope the boss of ATC, or his family, didn't need the use of our service over Easter! That would really be pushing it!!!

What do I do guys? Do I bite the bullet and pay (...grrrrr....), or should I hold out?

My last letter came this morning, saying I had 14 days from the date of the letter to pay £90. I'm actually on holiday for a week from the 29th July as well......so didn't want anything untoward to happen whilst I'm away.

Any help or wise words would be very gratefully received!


:mad::cool::(

Stephen_Leak

The situation is no different than with every other PPC victim.

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private company or individual can't. A private parking company (PPC) call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any alleged breach of any alleged contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If it’s in a free car park or the driver paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997, which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 and countless cases since.

There are also now recent landmark court cases, VCS Parking Control vs. Ronald Ibbotson, S!!!!horpe, 2012, HM Revenue & Customs vs. VCS Parking Control, Lower Tax Tribunal, 2012 and VCS Parking Control vs. HM Revenue & Customs (Appeal), Upper Tax Tribunal, 2012. In these cases, the judges ruled that only the car park owner can take drivers to court. The Upper Tax Tribunal is a court of record, equivalent to the High Court, and therefore its judgement sets a legal precedent.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you owe the CPO the original charge, then you ought to write to the CPO, offering this in “full and final settlement”. In any event, you should write to the CPO, advising them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by either of them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997. This ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with a PPC.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with harassing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve had to do this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it just means that they can now harass the driver instead of harassing the registered keeper.

How will they do this to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a blackmailer can't sue anyone who didn’t pay them.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem odd to deal with something like this by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats and stop throwing good money after bad.

tospig

Woah! good hijack..

Stephen_Leak wrote: »

The only people to suffer when a building management company bring in a private parking company are the residents. I can't wait for mine to make the same mistake. They won't know what hit them.

Have you advised them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by either of them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of <snip - I can't post links as a newbie!>

Unless it’s a condition of the lease, you can opt out of any parking scheme.

I haven't gone down the harassment route yet as I'm still unsure how to follow it up (all this legal stuff is confusing!). And I'd be keen to know how to hit them to better get my point across...

tospig

muckybutt wrote: »

I would also point the management company in the direction of the VCS transcript...

very interesting indeed!

Stephen_Leak

Just mentioning the Harassment Act (like PPCs just mention legal stuff, except it's relevant) might be enough.

If you do need to make good on your threat of legal action (unlike PPCs, you can do this), then we can tell you how to do it. "Criminally easy" is an inappropriate but accurate description.

PS. If you do give anyone a transcript of the VCS vs. Ronald Ibbotson transcript, don't forget to give them a toothbrush as well.