Advice needed on Private Car Park fine

sayedkadiri

Hello All

I received in the post today from LCP Parking Services Ltd a parking charge notice.

It states i didn't comply with the advertisement terms and conditions within harlesden plaza car park. It says stayed 18mins in the car park but didn't pay the ticket.

The car park is monitored by CCTV not patrol officers.

What happened was i entered the car park (which has no gate or barriers or anything like that)...i stayed inside the car and my friend went to get something from a shop.

Now i think if that was a normal road a parking officer cant fine me right, if im sitting in the car?

So i need advice on whether this applies to private car parks with CCTV monitoring or it doesn't.
And if it doesn't what should i do?

Many Thanks in advance

SodG24

The quick answer is that this is a private parking company so you owe them nothing. Ignore the ever escalating threats of doom and destruction and eventually they get bored and leave you alone.

Stephen_Leak

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private company or individual can't. A private parking company (PPC) call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any alleged breach of any alleged contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If it’s in a free car park or the driver paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997, which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 and countless cases since.

There are also now recent landmark court cases, VCS Parking Control vs. Ronald Ibbotson, S!!!!horpe, 2012, HM Revenue & Customs vs. VCS Parking Control, Lower Tax Tribunal, 2012 and VCS Parking Control vs. HM Revenue & Customs (Appeal), Upper Tax Tribunal, 2012. In these cases, the judges ruled that only the car park owner can take drivers to court. The Upper Tax Tribunal is a court of record, equivalent to the High Court, and therefore its judgement sets a legal precedent.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you owe the CPO the original charge, then you ought to write to the CPO, offering this in “full and final settlement”. In any event, you should write to the CPO, advising them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by either of them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997. This ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with a PPC.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with harassing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve had to do this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it just means that they can now harass the driver instead of harassing the registered keeper.

How will they do this to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a blackmailer can't sue anyone who didn’t pay them.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem odd to deal with something like this by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats and stop throwing good money after bad.

LincolnshireYokel

sayedkadiri wrote: »

Hello All

I received in the post today from LCP Parking Services Ltd a parking charge notice.

It states i didn't comply with the advertisement terms and conditions within harlesden plaza car park. It says stayed 18mins in the car park but didn't pay the ticket.

So you owe them 18/60 of what - a quid ? thats 30 pence. Otherwise they have incurred no other loss.

The car park is monitored by CCTV not patrol officers.

They can monitor it with a russian spy satellite if they like, it doesnt alter there non loss on iota.

What happened was i entered the car park (which has no gate or barriers or anything like that)...i stayed inside the car and my friend went to get something from a shop.

so you wernt trespassing either.

Now i think if that was a normal road a parking officer cant fine me right, if im sitting in the car?

different kettle of fish, nothing to do with it, this is private land, we assume.

So i need advice on whether this applies to private car parks with CCTV monitoring or it doesn't.
And if it doesn't what should i do?

Many Thanks in advance

Private land - due to a recent ruling in the Upper Tax Tribunal, private parking companies have no legal ability to offer parking to motorists on land they dont own, and cannot pursue motorists for any charges, only the landowner can do that. And since you were shopping in the shop, you have an implicit invitation from the landowner, and so wernt trespassing either, so they cant pursue you either.

So squat all anyone can do, you owe no one anything. Ignore the rest of the toothless threatograms and rubbish they send you from now on.

sayedkadiri

LincolnshireYokel wrote: »

. And since you were shopping in the shop, you have an implicit invitation from the landowner, and so wernt trespassing either, so they cant pursue you either

But the private car park is not owned by the shop i dont think (tesco)..thers an argos and poundstretcher in the same 'shopping plaza'

muckybutt

The car park if its a retail park will probably be owned by a pensions company, still makes no difference to your unenforceable ticket.......all you have to do is ignore it as has been said.

LincolnshireYokel

sayedkadiri wrote: »

But the private car park is not owned by the shop i dont think (tesco)..thers an argos and poundstretcher in the same 'shopping plaza'

If the landowner has rented the land to a shop, he cannot argue a shops customer is trespassing since the implied function of the tenant is a business, which implies customers parking....................it would be pretty hard to argue the contrary in court.

esmerobbo

Ignore LCP.

However for future reference on a highway if you are sitting in the car you are still parked!
You can stop for a passenger to board or alight if there are no other restrictions, but it can only be for as long as it takes to get out or in!

27col

I don't know where you got the idea that you were not parked if you were sitting in the car.for 18 minutes. However, as others have said, in this case it does not matter a hoot.
But if you did it somewhere that is council controlled then it certainly would matter.

Half_way

how much would it have cost if you parked for 18 minutes?

Avs_2

Everyone who posted a reply, I have the same problem with the same car park, so thank you for your information.

Sayedkadiri,
I assume you ignored the letters that LCP sent you ... how are things now ? (I am about to do the same)

Everyone, how can I check that LCP Parkinf Services are not linked to the council, etc (to ensure it is a private company and that they cannot win against me in court) ?

FYI,
I drove into this car park on 1st Sept, sat in my car for a 20 minute phone call, and then drove out (I did buy some lunch from BK while my wife sat in the car).


Any more tips would be very kindly appreciate.

Cheers
Av