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bankhater_1965

Quasar wrote: »

That is true. However it doesn't absolve people of responsibility when choosing not to work because it is easier.

can i add to this regards to the meens testing, some people who are more well off could argue that they are being penelised if they have paid into the system , so they should recieve benifits such as child benifit and child tax credits which personaly has been set to high to claim

MacMickster

bankhater_1965 wrote: »

pride responsibility aspiration went out years ago didnt it , i go out to work because my generation was differant , society was differant and i own my own business which i worked hard to build up , thats my reasons prob like yourself , but unfortunatly times have changed for right or wrong , thats how it is

I agree that some in our society have lost these basic qualities.

The tax credits experiment by the previous government aimed at reducing child poverty (in financial terms) seems to have increased the moral poverty in the UK.

I don't believe, however, that we should merely accept that things have changed and that's how it is. I believe that both government and, importantly, the great majority who still have these moral values, can help to reintroduce them to the benefits class.

There will be no short-term fix, but we can and must succeed.

Quasar

pqrdef wrote: »

But none of them understood either genetics or socioeconomics. The population will distribute itself between classes not as determined by ancestors but as required by the socioeconomic system. If society needs an underclass, it will create one, and if it doesn't like the people and wipes them out, it will create another one, which won't be any better.

You could round up all the long-term benefit claimants and eliminate them, but if long-term unemployment continues to be a feature of the economy, you'll have another crop soon enough, and their attitudes won't be any different, irrespective of who their parents were or how they were brought up. It's the situation and the prospects that breed the attitudes.

We won't make progress until we stop blaming the unemployed for unemployment.

Those are definitely good points. However, when I go to a cafe or a station and see cleaners and coffee servers being almost invariably foreigners (like me), I can't help feeling that there IS work out there but much of it is not good enough for the native population. Yet many of these natives could fill those jobs at least as a stepping stone to something else.

Also, many graduates are simply not up to scratch. I get CVs on my desk of allegedly bright young things with degrees in English who write things like "I do the internet", or "Basically we was involved in". Not major grammatical errors in themselves, but I do expect graduates to have perfect mastery of THEIR subjects, especially when part of the curriculum is the reading and analysis of classic literature.

Employability is also part of the equation, and a graduate should be able to improve their skills even AFTER leaving Uni. This is what even a basic education system should enable one to do after all those years in the system. Even non graduates can improve their skills and show willingness to work. In fact employers look at the latter with great favour.

There are jobs out there, if the natives really want them. They may not be glamorous and easy, but they are there and the able will get better ones very soon. There is no point pretending that everyone should have a great job, as some people's abilities are not above menial work. Not a palatable or PC thing to say, but it's the brutal truth.

VfM4meplse

ILW wrote: »

4 kids is way over what a low earning family should plan for. It's a matter of responsibility.

DKLS wrote: »

Perhaps the parents should explore one of the fifteen choices of contraception available in the UK, and find which one works for them before burdening the planet with yet another mewling cabbage they cannot house.

MacMickster wrote: »

The idea of adapting their lifestyle and aspirations to their means only vaguely crosses their minds.

I couldn't get past p1 of this thread but felt I had to add that the NHS provides contraception foc. In this country, there can be few valid excuses for having unwanted children, and if you're Catholic, the answer is obviously not to have sex.

DKLS wrote: »

I always think of this clip when I see threads like this.

Hilarious!

Quasar

VfM4meplse wrote: »

I couldn't get past p1 of this thread but felt I had to add that the NHS provides contraception foc. In this country, there can be few valid excuses for having unwanted children, and if you're Catholic, the answer is obviously not to have sex.

I was raised a catholic in Italy. You can't be in a more (perceivedly) catholic country. Italy's native population is declining because we have a very low birth rate, and at one point it was actually negative.

The reason for the above is that Italians' use of contraception is one of the highest in the world. Being catholic is one thing, acting catholic is quite another. It's not the pope who feeds our children but us, and therefore we choose to have one or two at most, or none. Why, we even have legalised abortion! Most catholics in the UK are the same I believe.

Contraception use is largely a cultural thing, NOT religious. That certain religions neatly fit into a cultural milieu is what causes some of their traits to be more glaring that they would otherwise be. The stereotype of the catholic family with countless children is just that - a stereotype in most of the world.

Sapphire

Quasar wrote: »

Those are definitely good points. However, when I go to a cafe or a station and see cleaners and coffee servers being almost invariably foreigners (like me), I can't help feeling that there IS work out there but much of it is not good enough for the native population. Yet many of these natives could fill those jobs at least as a stepping stone to something else.

Also, many graduates are simply not up to scratch. I get CVs on my desk of allegedly bright young things with degrees in English who write things like "I do the internet", or "Basically we was involved in". Not major grammatical errors in themselves, but I do expect graduates to have perfect mastery of THEIR subjects, especially when part of the curriculum is the reading and analysis of classic literature.

Employability is also part of the equation, and a graduate should be able to improve their skills even AFTER leaving Uni. This is what even a basic education system should enable one to do after all those years in the system. Even non graduates can improve their skills and show willingness to work. In fact employers look at the latter with great favour.

There are jobs out there, if the natives really want them. They may not be glamorous and easy, but they are there and the able will get better ones very soon. There is no point pretending that everyone should have a great job, as some people's abilities are not above menial work. Not a palatable or PC thing to say, but it's the brutal truth.

I've come across the same issues as you when employing people – even a few years ago. Also, it used to be the case that even if you were a graduate with a good degree (unless you had friends in high places), you had to start at the very 'bottom' in order to progress. Often such jobs at the bottom are boring, but they do teach you a huge amount about such things as office procedures, time-keeping, how people interact with one another in a work environment, how to behave when you are among people you wouldn't necessarily choose to be friends with, etc.

That is something that many people from the indigenous population who are just starting out their working lives do not seem to realize.

VfM4meplse

Quasar wrote: »

I was raised a catholic in Italy. You can't be in a more (perceivedly) catholic country. Italy's native population is declining because we have a very low birth rate, and at one point it was actually negative.

One thing I know, Italians love their bambini!

bankhater_1965

its a bloody awfull society we live in

VfM4meplse

bankhater_1965 wrote: »

its a bloody awfull society we live in

In general, or do you have a specific gripe?

bankhater_1965

VfM4meplse wrote: »

In general, or do you have a specific gripe?

just in general