Preparedness for when

jk0

Interesting isn't it, that though posters to this thread are from very varied political persuasions, we seem to agree on most of the issues.

Frugalsod

I agree that if the Labour Party were to drop the neo-liberal policies and agenda it would be a good thing. A return to their roots would fix many of their problems. They no longer represent the workers so maybe the unions should found a new party and stop funding Labour.

All three main parties were running on a near identical neo-liberal agenda. So why pick any of them? This also applies to the mainstream parties everywhere. Though the problem is that they have all been bought by big money and so are all corrupt. They also all took their respective bases for granted. Though if anyone on minimum wage or a zero hour contract voted conservative they need their head examined.

As to immigration there is plenty of space in this country for the immigrants but the problem is that they sold off the council housing stock, failed to replace it, and so exacerbated a housing crisis for the average person. Also most house building has been aimed at the top of the market and nothing below that level. That would explain a surge in UKIP support. A ban on big houses being built and building only affordable homes for a decade or so might help address the problem. At the moment all the politicians and builders are interested in are building 4 bed mansions starting at £600 000. How is that going to help the average person on average wage, or less? I have a building site next door with two bed flats starting at £600 000 and the three bed starting at £800 000. This is 45 miles from London in a rural district!

Personally I do not mind the immigrants. Many are doing jobs that are unsociable and low paid. Their presence has also improved the goods in the supermarkets. Has anyone else tried the world foods aisles recently with all the Polish foods which are so much better than what is on offer to us. In addition they bring in vital quality of services in skills such as plumbing. How often have you heard good things about Polish plumbers or builders? It might improve the offering of what our workforce should be expecting to do. Though jobs not even being offered locally does need to stop. Also the working rights means that we can just as easily work abroad. Also if xenophobia does take root across Europe how valuable will those second homes in Spain Portugal and Greece really be worth, if the locals who could buy are broke? What would all those deported retirees do when they landed at Heathrow?

daz378

Aw thoughts to you and Docky Mrs L ....our pets have alwys been part of the family...... spot on Frugal.... worrying times

moneyistooshorttomention

I'd agree with most of your post there FrugalSod - with the exception of having distinct reservations re the immigration (not because they are foreign I hasten to add - but because they are extra people and we seriously do not need/don't have room for extra people per se - whatever nationality they happen to be and that includes us). Your quote re house prices for a start shows demand is exceeding supply and I well recall my economics lessons dictating what would (and has...) happened then...

There is indeed a valid thought there re what happens to British expatriates that have moved to Europe. I have got a friend that discusses the possibility of doing this with me at intervals - and I am strongly advising them against it. I have now pointed out numerous times re Spain = can you be sure you aren't going to find your house was illicitly built and you pay the penalty for it if the shtf. Anywhere in Europe = can you be sure you'll get even what level of healthcare our poor battered NHS provides etc etc. I think they have listened to me eventually - and their longing for sun (understandable...) has been put on the backburner and they are going to stay in Britain.

But...yes...the main Parties did seem to be all running on much the same agenda at the last Election.

..and yes I would agree that they have basically been bought by Big Money.

As for the surge in UKIP support - well I think that is only pretty indirectly down to house prices (ie that law of supply and demand - down to too many people wanting to buy houses - down to too many people). I think (though I may only be speaking for myself - but regard it as a working hypothesis for the sake of argument) that that surge boils down to equalling "Well - if all the major Parties have been bought by Big Money and are following much the same agenda anyway = in that case we might just as well slam in a major protest vote against our wide-open borders and we might (just) be in time to stop the country sinking under the weight of this huge number of people that want to live here". Put like that - it does rather look like a no-brainer and I'm sure many people who voted that way must have been crossing fingers at the same time and praying that others will re-discover their roots and stop kowtowing to Big Money and bear in mind the poor bl**dy electorates priorities and then we can all go back to voting as per normal next time.

So - what are you gonna do? Do a protest vote for the poor bl**dy environment (ie Green Party) or a protest vote to try and stop Britain drowning under the weight of lots of extra people (ie UKIP). You might as well do a protest vote for someone or other in the circumstances of how the major Parties are and if you are dying to slap the Labour Party hard across the face then who is the best bet to get the LP cheeks stinging?

Frugalsod

jk0 wrote: »

Interesting isn't it, that though posters to this thread are from very varied political persuasions, we seem to agree on most of the issues.

I suspect that most people of all political persuasions want the same thing. All would like some stability in their life, opportunities for their offspring and a reasonable quality of life. None of which is impossible or unaffordable if we have some semblance of equality.

GreyQueen

I think that the trouble with the political castes of this country, whatever they would describe as their party politics, is that they are a political caste. They are not individuals who have lived for decades as adults in the real world, whether as masters of industry or shopfloor workers. They are people who have aspired since adolescence to enter this thing called Politics, who manoervered through Young This and Young That, entered student politics, went into Westminster as researchers and greased their way into candidacy and eventual election.

They have the smooth exterior of those who have never been seriously-challenged, they share tribal connections with the elite, whether the Bullington Club or the right kind of leftist dinner party circuit. You just know that they know all the right people and probably literally cannot see the cleaner, the shop assistant, the streetsweeper as they pass them.

What they don't have is the intimate lived experience of having spent a huge chunk of their life coping with hardship, injustice, poor working conditions, and inadequate housing. They aren't being kept awake at all hours by horrible little chytes rowdying in high-density housing. They haven't had their neighbours raided for drugs on Bank Holiday Monday (we did here), they are not competing furiously for the social housing, or the scarce affordable housing.

Reading reports and sitting on committees is all well and good, but it doesn't prepare even the well-meaning and kindlier politicals for confronting the real issues which are of concern to many of the electorate.

I encounter a lot of working poor like me and benefit-dependant people who have just flat out given up on politics altogether and who never vote. They can't believe that any of politicians can or will do anything to make their lives a smidgeon better.

The thing which concerns me most about this state of affairs is that this mindset is apt to be seized upon by demagogues. This was true in ancient Rome, 1920s/1930s Germany, and could go badly in the near future.

Look out for rising demagogues, watch for scapegoating of minorities, be wary of ending up a Britisher overseas when it all goes t*ts up.

Frugalsod

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I'd agree with most of your post there FrugalSod - with the exception of having distinct reservations re the immigration (not because they are foreign I hasten to add - but because they are extra people and we seriously do not need/don't have room for extra people per se - whatever nationality they happen to be and that includes us). Your quote re house prices for a start shows demand is exceeding supply and I well recall my economics lessons dictating what would (and has...) happened then...

Well we are not particularly crowded especially if you consider Hong Kong, Singapore and Holland are all far more crowded than the UK. It is just what we are used to. Not that I am even suggesting that we get anywhere near population densities as that. Though if we were to get rid of the immigrants what do we do when our own children push the population over that same level do we deport them as well?



Re the building site next door, the prices being asked are not being met. The flats have been on the market for months and are being sold in tranches to appear like they are selling better than they really are. The builders are still appearing every now and then to finish them but activity has been much lower recently. There are some 8 four bed houses nearby that were finished nearly two years ago for only £500 000 each. Only one has been sold.

Other local developments were only sold when the banks threatened foreclosure on the developer and they were sold for well below asking price. What you have are developers getting greedy and chancing that they can find a bunch of fools who do not know what they are buying. We have more than a dozen home locally on the market for more than a million pounds. Most have been on the market for several years.

The real driver in house prices has been bank lending over the last three decades. As long as wages rose to cover it, it was all manageable. Then they reduced interest rates to keep buying going and now we have homes that are multiples of average wages or median wages, and effectively price around 90% of the UK out of the reach of first time buyers. The city near me has an average price for a two bed flat of nearly £200 000, yet the average wage is only £20 000 pa. So a multiple of 10 times wages, so completely unaffordable for even couples unless they get help from mum and dad. Housing is a giant Ponzi scheme and ALL Ponzi schemes fail eventually. The worst thing is that when it does collapse it will not only take the homes of the first time buyers but also the homes of mum and dad.

London for the last decade and the last few years especially has been driven by hot money fleeing from southern Europe and more recently by wealthy Asians buying up entire blocks in London. A big part of this recent surge is down to fraud. A two bed flat in a tower block in Lambeth is not prime central London property but it is being flogged to gullible foreigners for £1 million plus. They are cheap when compared to Singapore. I have even heard of property in Lincolnshire being advertised in Asia as only 40 minutes walk from central London. Also much of the buying has been done with dodgy and stolen money and so when the buyers are caught back home who will pay for its upkeep? And who will buy the flat then? Outside the price range of locals.

Also property is valued on the margin so most homes never get traded but their value is increased by the value of the homes nearby that are sold.

Frugalsod

GreyQueen wrote: »

I encounter a lot of working poor like me and benefit-dependant people who have just flat out given up on politics altogether and who never vote. They can't believe that any of politicians can or will do anything to make their lives a smidgeon better.

Which is why some never even bothered to vote. I would like to see voting made compulsory but with an option for none of the above. If more than 50% vote for none of the above the elected candidate spends the entire parliament on minimum wage and housing benefit no expenses at all, even if it were the Prime Minister. All travel to be in cattle class.

GreyQueen wrote: »

The thing which concerns me most about this state of affairs is that this mindset is apt to be seized upon by demagogues. This was true in ancient Rome, 1920s/1930s Germany, and could go badly in the near future.

Look out for rising demagogues, watch for scapegoating of minorities, be wary of ending up a Britisher overseas when it all goes t*ts up.

Well we all ready have the scapegoating by all the parties who use the term "We are for Hard working families", So are those on benefits or the disabled, lazy or not trying? GreyQueen you could probably confirm how hard working crack dealers are, running about all hours.

It is as if single mums are not even trying. Even non working families are all trying to do the best for their family one way or another.

In some respects I think of good old Nigel as a bit of a demagogue though he makes sense at times.

[Deleted User]

I'd agree about builders being greedy opportunists, a few houses down the road from us is a 1950s bungalow. It started life as a bungalow with a lovely long garden but one of its previous owners sold off part of that back garden to a local who already owned our old gravel pit which was behind it, giving that person a much larger plot. He started building a massive house on the plot and dropped dead with a heart attack. It was subsequently bought by another builder, the building finished and sold for much dosh. Scroll forward a few years to two years ago and the owner of the now small gardened bungalow also died unexpectedly and his wife sold the bungalow to yet another local builder who let it for 6 months and applied for planning permission to build yet another bungalow in the much reduced back garden and there were many objections made to the planners as there were big privacy issues and the
plans were turned down and the builder told the plot was unsuitable for further development. He then tried to sell the whole thing for rather more than it was worth, presumably to cover his losses. When that didn't happen he has appealed to the Home Secretary for his planning permission to be granted. Greedy or what? like a spoiled child who can't get his own way.....we're still awaiting the outcome with a degree of interest and the wait goes on .....

armyknife

Frugalsod wrote: »

Well we are not particularly crowded especially if you consider Hong Kong, Singapore and Holland are all far more crowded than the UK. It is just what we are used to. Not that I am even suggesting that we get anywhere near population densities as that.
.....

Interestingly, or not, England and The Netherlands have very similar population densities.