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There is no such thing as a PARKING FINE - please read
screwbiedooo
Posts: 32 Forumite
! There is a lot of confusion about the whole issue. Not surpring, since you are taught nothing of law and rights at school. For good reason. If you were, those claiming power over you would lose it, and some very lucrative revenue streams! I have investigated parking in quite some depth over the last two years and here are some things you need to know!!
1. There is no such thing as a PARKING FINE.
When, where, how have you EVER seen the word FINE on a parking ticket, speeding ticket, penalty fare or congestion charge ticket?
Never? So why keep calling them fines and deceiving yourself??? Parking enforcement was decriminalised a few years ago (ie no longer indictable by the state). They cannot be FINES because you can only be fined by a judge in a court of competent jurisdiction after successful prosecution, if needs be, by trial before a jury of your peers. Full stop, period, over and out. Any suggestion of a fine without these conditions is ILLEGAL and VOID - our Constitutional statutes (Bill of Rights, Magna Carta) say so. The authorities do not want you to know this!
Could they in fact be PENALTIES, and is that the reason they are callen Penalty Charge Notices? Yes! Look up ‘Penalty’ in any dictionary, You may discover it is a civil forfeiture for non fulfilment of contractual obligations.
2. No contract? No penalty!
When, where, how did you ever sign a contract for parking with ANYONE? Never? Ok, so what are penalty charge notices based on? Nothing? Alleluia!
Ask them to prosecute you (they won't) and offer to pay the ticket immediately ON CONDITION the parking authority present a contract for parking that YOU SIGNED. If they can't do this, what on earth is there to pay?
Even then a PCN is just a notice. It is not a bill, just information about something called a penalty charge. You don’t pay notices.
3. You don’t own your car.
So, you dutifully thought you HAD to register with the DVLA. You told them your address. You’ve paid them thousands over the years in road tax, but they betray you –nice! So now the council catches up with you at your home with a Notice to Owner. The Notice to Owner is for the OWNER of a vehicle. It says so on it. That’s why it’s called ‘Notice to Owner’. Look on your logbook. It says very clearly it is NOT evidence of ownership.
You are the KEEPER. Who owns your vehicle is not known to the local council, IBM Ltd, or the Sheriff of Nottingham. And yet you, the keeper, do not get a Notice to Keeper, you get a Notice to Owner. I do not believe our legislators are completely stupid, rather I suggest IT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU BECAUSE THE KEEPER IS NOT LIABLE! But in ACCEPTING it you assume the status of ‘owner’ of your own volition and take upon yourself all the liabilities reserved for the owner, who is anonymous. You do not have to. I suggest politely returning it and directing the parking authority to continue their search for the owner…
4. The 'independent adjudicator' is to be regarded with suspicion.
When you get a ticket you will be offered the chance of appeal to a supposedly independent adjudicator. You do not know if they are truly independent (in the case of the railways they certainly are not). It is very unlikely, and anyway if you do you are ACCEPTING the process against you. If there is no lawful basis for it, why play along? You can try it but you stand a very good chance of losing with the adjudicator.
5. If the ‘court’ is one-sided, don't play the game.
Would you play tennis on a court belonging to your opponent where he has rubbed out his lines and every shot you played was out? The council will pretend to take their CIVIL DEBT CLAIM to 'County Court', most likely the TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT CENTRE at Northampton. THE CLUE IS IN THE NAME. It is NOT a neutral adjudicator, NOT even a court - it is an ENFORCEMENT CENTRE, in a big grey building somewhere near a 'court'. How many courts advertise whose side they are on in their title?! It is not there to defend you or find truth. The TEC will offer you only FOUR grounds for your defence! Four - out of the realm of infinite possibility? They don't care about truth! They never give you a chance to present your argument or suggest the whole system is illegal and you are denied a hearing or a jury. Do not catch yourself out by ticking their boxes. The TEC exists to make you lose! Don't play. You do not have to consent to their biased 'adjudication'.
You may show them that you offered to pay but the plaintiff did not present the contract. At this point you have won the moral argument. They won't care - their job is to collude with the council – you were already ‘found guilty’ the minute the PCN was placed on your car. Insist on a trial. They probably still won't care. It's not their job.
6. Debt collectors are not bailiffs.
Most debt collectors are not certified bailiffs. Their warrants are almost always unsigned (INVALID!). They are private debt collectors. Their job - simply to scare you into paying up, just like thugs down the pub. They have NO RIGHT to force entry to your property. NEVER let them in. Take precautions if necessary, like installing gates, intercoms or cameras at your house and call the police immediately if they threaten you.
Since the whole process: PCN, NtO, adjudication, TEC, charge certificate, court order etc is a PRIVATE FRAUD, they could have just cut to the chase and sent debt collectors around in the first place. They have no extra rights at the end of the shambolic process than at the beginning. Fraud does not lend legitimacy to it. Neither do debt collectors have any right to add additional extra-contractual costs to the claim - unless you consent!
This is what the whole thing boils down to, and the only source of power they have – a scary looking man knocking on your door. Full stop, period, over and out.
Another point to consider is that, IF the debt recovery company has bought the alleged debt, it no longer belongs to the council. Hmmm. In selling something we abandon claim to it don't we? In that case, the council has already ABANDONED its claim against you. There is then only a claim by a debt collector - and what on earth is that based on? What have they ever done for you? NOTHING? NOTHING!
7. It's not about Justice - it's about PROFIT.
Like many other areas of the public trust, parking enforcement has been privatised. Councils now usually employ subcontractors - large corporations such as Mouchel, Capita etc. to enforce parking controls on the streets, and other subcontractors such as IBM, Vertex to run the back office systems that send out the NtOs etc. In the case of Westminster, the back office is run by Vertex Data Science on a business park in the far north of Scotland, where the Traffic Management Act 2004 doesn’t even apply! PCNs are at least partially for PRIVATE GAIN therefore. Remember too that private corporations have no business enforcing so-called law, or acting as government! It's called conflict of interest (or simply fascism) and is unlawful. Point to ponder - how many PCNs does the CEO of Mouchel pay?
I met the chief parking officer for Westminster Council by chance a few weeks ago. He himself works for a large, faceless subcontractor. You know what he called parking enforcement? An INDUSTRY!
It's not about law or justice - it's about profit. You knew this already...
8. Some other revelations
The same chap also revealed to me that after two years, outstanding PCN claims are erased as unviable recovery - no longer profitable to pursue in other words. He told me the head of Westminster parking services is a post with a rapid turnover. I suspect because a lot more people are able to give whoever has the role some really big headaches nowadays. I know I have! The penultimate one still owes me two million pounds!! I asked him about foreign registered cars. He said the councils have reciprocal agreements with other EU countries to reveal address details. He said with amazement 'sometimes German people will pop a cheque in the post'!!!! This is because German people are dutiful and kind - not because there is any way to enforce claims.
9. What can you do?
You are simply dealing with bullies - the very kind of tyranny our constitutional statutes were supposed to protect you from. There are many things you can do: Park more carefully (in a funny way the whole nasty business does work)! Do not accept the status of ‘owner’. Refuse to be bound by the Traffic Management Act (if you haven’t read it/can’t understand it how can you be bound by it?) Insist on a true and lawful bill. Use clever notices to bind the councils/enforcement companies into debts to YOU (oh yes you can!) Insist on prosecution. Drive a foreign-plated vehicle. De-register your vehicle. Do not tell the DVLA your change of address (do you HAVE to? are you sure?) Get yourself a PO Box address (the councils and the enforcement companies do). Get yourself a revenue-making 0845 number (the councils and the enforcement companies do). Protect your property with high walls and gates (the bosses of councils and enforcement companies do). Tell others what you just learned. Campaign to your MP about this. Educate him/her on the Constitutional protections we have. Be no longer deceived. Educate yourself on law and rights. Tell others, tell others, tell others...
Oh, and tell others...
Best of luck to you!
1. There is no such thing as a PARKING FINE.
When, where, how have you EVER seen the word FINE on a parking ticket, speeding ticket, penalty fare or congestion charge ticket?
Never? So why keep calling them fines and deceiving yourself??? Parking enforcement was decriminalised a few years ago (ie no longer indictable by the state). They cannot be FINES because you can only be fined by a judge in a court of competent jurisdiction after successful prosecution, if needs be, by trial before a jury of your peers. Full stop, period, over and out. Any suggestion of a fine without these conditions is ILLEGAL and VOID - our Constitutional statutes (Bill of Rights, Magna Carta) say so. The authorities do not want you to know this!
Could they in fact be PENALTIES, and is that the reason they are callen Penalty Charge Notices? Yes! Look up ‘Penalty’ in any dictionary, You may discover it is a civil forfeiture for non fulfilment of contractual obligations.
2. No contract? No penalty!
When, where, how did you ever sign a contract for parking with ANYONE? Never? Ok, so what are penalty charge notices based on? Nothing? Alleluia!
Ask them to prosecute you (they won't) and offer to pay the ticket immediately ON CONDITION the parking authority present a contract for parking that YOU SIGNED. If they can't do this, what on earth is there to pay?
Even then a PCN is just a notice. It is not a bill, just information about something called a penalty charge. You don’t pay notices.
3. You don’t own your car.
So, you dutifully thought you HAD to register with the DVLA. You told them your address. You’ve paid them thousands over the years in road tax, but they betray you –nice! So now the council catches up with you at your home with a Notice to Owner. The Notice to Owner is for the OWNER of a vehicle. It says so on it. That’s why it’s called ‘Notice to Owner’. Look on your logbook. It says very clearly it is NOT evidence of ownership.
You are the KEEPER. Who owns your vehicle is not known to the local council, IBM Ltd, or the Sheriff of Nottingham. And yet you, the keeper, do not get a Notice to Keeper, you get a Notice to Owner. I do not believe our legislators are completely stupid, rather I suggest IT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU BECAUSE THE KEEPER IS NOT LIABLE! But in ACCEPTING it you assume the status of ‘owner’ of your own volition and take upon yourself all the liabilities reserved for the owner, who is anonymous. You do not have to. I suggest politely returning it and directing the parking authority to continue their search for the owner…
4. The 'independent adjudicator' is to be regarded with suspicion.
When you get a ticket you will be offered the chance of appeal to a supposedly independent adjudicator. You do not know if they are truly independent (in the case of the railways they certainly are not). It is very unlikely, and anyway if you do you are ACCEPTING the process against you. If there is no lawful basis for it, why play along? You can try it but you stand a very good chance of losing with the adjudicator.
5. If the ‘court’ is one-sided, don't play the game.
Would you play tennis on a court belonging to your opponent where he has rubbed out his lines and every shot you played was out? The council will pretend to take their CIVIL DEBT CLAIM to 'County Court', most likely the TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT CENTRE at Northampton. THE CLUE IS IN THE NAME. It is NOT a neutral adjudicator, NOT even a court - it is an ENFORCEMENT CENTRE, in a big grey building somewhere near a 'court'. How many courts advertise whose side they are on in their title?! It is not there to defend you or find truth. The TEC will offer you only FOUR grounds for your defence! Four - out of the realm of infinite possibility? They don't care about truth! They never give you a chance to present your argument or suggest the whole system is illegal and you are denied a hearing or a jury. Do not catch yourself out by ticking their boxes. The TEC exists to make you lose! Don't play. You do not have to consent to their biased 'adjudication'.
You may show them that you offered to pay but the plaintiff did not present the contract. At this point you have won the moral argument. They won't care - their job is to collude with the council – you were already ‘found guilty’ the minute the PCN was placed on your car. Insist on a trial. They probably still won't care. It's not their job.
6. Debt collectors are not bailiffs.
Most debt collectors are not certified bailiffs. Their warrants are almost always unsigned (INVALID!). They are private debt collectors. Their job - simply to scare you into paying up, just like thugs down the pub. They have NO RIGHT to force entry to your property. NEVER let them in. Take precautions if necessary, like installing gates, intercoms or cameras at your house and call the police immediately if they threaten you.
Since the whole process: PCN, NtO, adjudication, TEC, charge certificate, court order etc is a PRIVATE FRAUD, they could have just cut to the chase and sent debt collectors around in the first place. They have no extra rights at the end of the shambolic process than at the beginning. Fraud does not lend legitimacy to it. Neither do debt collectors have any right to add additional extra-contractual costs to the claim - unless you consent!
This is what the whole thing boils down to, and the only source of power they have – a scary looking man knocking on your door. Full stop, period, over and out.
Another point to consider is that, IF the debt recovery company has bought the alleged debt, it no longer belongs to the council. Hmmm. In selling something we abandon claim to it don't we? In that case, the council has already ABANDONED its claim against you. There is then only a claim by a debt collector - and what on earth is that based on? What have they ever done for you? NOTHING? NOTHING!
7. It's not about Justice - it's about PROFIT.
Like many other areas of the public trust, parking enforcement has been privatised. Councils now usually employ subcontractors - large corporations such as Mouchel, Capita etc. to enforce parking controls on the streets, and other subcontractors such as IBM, Vertex to run the back office systems that send out the NtOs etc. In the case of Westminster, the back office is run by Vertex Data Science on a business park in the far north of Scotland, where the Traffic Management Act 2004 doesn’t even apply! PCNs are at least partially for PRIVATE GAIN therefore. Remember too that private corporations have no business enforcing so-called law, or acting as government! It's called conflict of interest (or simply fascism) and is unlawful. Point to ponder - how many PCNs does the CEO of Mouchel pay?
I met the chief parking officer for Westminster Council by chance a few weeks ago. He himself works for a large, faceless subcontractor. You know what he called parking enforcement? An INDUSTRY!
It's not about law or justice - it's about profit. You knew this already...
8. Some other revelations
The same chap also revealed to me that after two years, outstanding PCN claims are erased as unviable recovery - no longer profitable to pursue in other words. He told me the head of Westminster parking services is a post with a rapid turnover. I suspect because a lot more people are able to give whoever has the role some really big headaches nowadays. I know I have! The penultimate one still owes me two million pounds!! I asked him about foreign registered cars. He said the councils have reciprocal agreements with other EU countries to reveal address details. He said with amazement 'sometimes German people will pop a cheque in the post'!!!! This is because German people are dutiful and kind - not because there is any way to enforce claims.
9. What can you do?
You are simply dealing with bullies - the very kind of tyranny our constitutional statutes were supposed to protect you from. There are many things you can do: Park more carefully (in a funny way the whole nasty business does work)! Do not accept the status of ‘owner’. Refuse to be bound by the Traffic Management Act (if you haven’t read it/can’t understand it how can you be bound by it?) Insist on a true and lawful bill. Use clever notices to bind the councils/enforcement companies into debts to YOU (oh yes you can!) Insist on prosecution. Drive a foreign-plated vehicle. De-register your vehicle. Do not tell the DVLA your change of address (do you HAVE to? are you sure?) Get yourself a PO Box address (the councils and the enforcement companies do). Get yourself a revenue-making 0845 number (the councils and the enforcement companies do). Protect your property with high walls and gates (the bosses of councils and enforcement companies do). Tell others what you just learned. Campaign to your MP about this. Educate him/her on the Constitutional protections we have. Be no longer deceived. Educate yourself on law and rights. Tell others, tell others, tell others...
Oh, and tell others...
Best of luck to you!
0
Comments
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Err, yes, and?
Did you spend any time reading the forum before spewing forth?0 -
Coals to Newcastle comes to mind.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0
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Some misunderstanding of basic principles, for example, the burden of proof in civil proceedings; the lack of any necessity that contracts to be in writing and signed, the extent of jurisdiction and the creeping in of slightly dodgy FoTL beliefs but the overall tenor is there.
The vast majority of the post applies only to DPE proceedings, of course which has little if any bearing on PPC's.My very sincere apologies for those hoping to request off-board assistance but I am now so inundated with requests that in order to do justice to those "already in the system" I am no longer accepting PM's and am unlikely to do so for the foreseeable future (August 2016).
For those seeking more detailed advice and guidance regarding small claims cases arising from private parking issues I recommend that you visit the Private Parking forum on PePiPoo.com0 -
Thanks for your input but I beg to differ. A great number of people persist in believing that PCNs are Fines, including the publishers of MSE. A great many still believe they are bound to pay them, as witnessed by the posts on this forum. We have still not reached the end of ignorance, so I think the 'spew' will stand for a while longer, thanks.0
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I don't think your argument will work too well with the TEC bailiff, when they have a clamp on your car and just about to phone the tow truck?
You could build high walls and gates and buy a big dog, an 0845 Number a PO Box, but it would probably be easier and wiser after appealing just to pay your penalty.
PS: Its not hard to find an address a PO Box is registered too!0 -
I don't think your argument will work too well with the TEC bailiff, when they have a clamp on your car and just about to phone the tow truck?
You could build high walls and gates and buy a big dog, an 0845 Number a PO Box, but it would probably be easier and wiser after appealing just to pay your penalty.
PS: Its not hard to find an address a PO Box is registered too!
Quite.
A bit like those freeman of the land who claim they dont need to pay council tax and then look stupid in the magistrates court.
Oh that reminds me I am on jury service Monday!! What fun that will be....Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
What a waste of electrons....and time.
Here's a much better analysis...
PPC = Private = Ignore, ignore, ignore some more.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why then you're as thick and stupid as the moderators on here - MSE ForumTeam0 -
The OP is correct when he talks about Fines, you can only be fined in Court by a Judge or Magistrate, all the other stuff is fixed penalties / unenforceable invoices etc.
The rest of the rant is straight out of the Freemen Of The Land website (fmotl.com) which, whilst it sounds great in theory - ignore the law, never pay your council tax or any other statutory debts - won't be of much practical help whilst the bailiffs are seizing your car, your utilities have been cut off, and the police are dragging you off to court. It's a trip to lala land.
I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.0 -
Some misunderstanding of basic principles, for example, the burden of proof in civil proceedings; the lack of any necessity that contracts to be in writing and signed, the extent of jurisdiction and the creeping in of slightly dodgy FoTL beliefs but the overall tenor is there.
The vast majority of the post applies only to DPE proceedings, of course which has little if any bearing on PPC's.
Does the burden of proof not lie with the plaintiff? When, where, will any council show you a contract of any kind, or any evidence that there was one? Even if it was just a verbal one, there is no suggestion of it. Yes, this is not about PPCs. We should know they are to be ignored.0 -
notts_phil wrote: »Quite.
A bit like those freeman of the land who claim they dont need to pay council tax and then look stupid in the magistrates court.
Oh that reminds me I am on jury service Monday!! What fun that will be....
You would never be able to do that if what Perky/Hasbeen had accused you of in the removed posts was true Phil.:)"You should know not to believe everything in media & polls by now !"
John539 2-12-14 Post 150300
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