Would you like the UK out of the European Union?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

chewmylegoff wrote: »

My view is that the reality is that it wouldn't make much of a difference to anything if we left, which is as good as an argument for staying in as any, if you ask me.

In the long term, Britain could certainly survive and thrive as an independent entity. Although I suspect there would be significant short term damage caused to the economy.

But as you rightly point out, there is little that would change in policy terms, so why bother leaving?

-We'll still need immigrants, so we'll get them from somewhere.

-We'll still need to trade with the EU, so we'll try to negotiate a free trade agreement.

-Millions of our citizens wish to live or work in Europe, just as millions of their citizens wish to live or work here, so I rather suspect that would have to be resolved without removing our people from Europe, or their people from here.

Which really begs the question, why go through the short term pain of leaving, when little would change in the long term?

DVardysShadow

chewmylegoff wrote: »

EU membership is a big ideological issue for a lot of people, with one side of the argument claiming that we'd be a pariah state with no economy if we weren't a member, and others seeking to blame the EU for everything - if only we could leave everything would be perfect again, like before....


My view is that the reality is that it wouldn't make much of a difference to anything if we left, which is as good as an argument for staying in as any, if you ask me.

I think that the big difference is that we would have to find someone or something else to blame for all our own shortcomings.

Although I am in favour of staying in, I recognise that the mindspace has become so poisoned that it would be quite healthy to know what failings we are really responsible for ourselves.

Conrad

pqrdef wrote: »

No need to be over-impressed by countries like those, because as we keep seeing, an export-based economy is an aberration that can't last.

The writing is already on the wall. Nothing like a massive home market when it comes to keeping down unit production costs.

Is German manufacturing in decline?

Is S korea in decline - last I saw they'd pretty well captured massive manufactuing sectors including chip and phone manufacture, with much more in the pipeline - whole house integration for example.

We are on the cusp of the next industrial revolution, and there's no reason a lean mean Britain cannot stand perfectly well on it's own feet.

The new IR btw is going to be built on an incredible expansion in many areas, notably bio engineering which will transform society to an even greater extent than IT.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Sampong wrote: »

Sure yeah - fantastic benefit that one is, I have the right to go and work in Poland if I wish for a fraction of the wages in the UK..

Or the right to work in Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam or Brussels on comparable wages to the UK.

Or to retire in Spain. Or to go to University in Holland. Etc.

Millions of people use these rights... And I for one would have no interest in losing them.

chewmylegoff

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Which really begs the question, why go through the short term pain of leaving, when little would change in the long term?

i very much agree with this. when you propose a major change, the first thing you should be able to articulate is what exactly you are hoping to fix by making that major change. as no-one can really explain what it is that would be fixed by leaving the EU, i don't really see the point. that said i am pretty uncomfortable about the extent to which unelected people influence/determine european policy, but i am pretty uncomfortable with the level of real democracy in the UK so i'm not sure we really solve that problem by leaving.

lostinrates

chewmylegoff wrote: »

EU membership is a big ideological issue for a lot of people, with one side of the argument claiming that we'd be a pariah state with no economy if we weren't a member, and others seeking to blame the EU for everything - if only we could leave everything would be perfect again, like before....


My view is that the reality is that it wouldn't make much of a difference to anything if we left, which is as good as an argument for staying in as any, if you ask me.

Well, my view is that being in the eu was a way dh used to leapfrog into the industry he wanted to be in. By using the language skills we could all aquire, and the gumption to go somewhere else in europe, instead of just complaining about other europeans being here, he turned the tables of being one of many of similar demographic applying for a jpb here, to being one amoung a few applying else where.

If we didn't have the house and so many animals we could do it again.

There are pluses available to us. That many choose not to take.

Conrad

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

so why bother leaving?

The reasons for leaving (once the current financial eye of the storm has sufficiently passed over) include;


+ More local decision making - aren't we forever saying localism is a plus


+ Remove a layer of buracracy


+ More accountability in terms of funds and where they go


+ A leaner more responsive society and economy where the head is closer to the hands


+ No more slavish following of directives that Italians and others ignore


+ Less funding of white lephants

Fella

chewmylegoff wrote: »

when you propose a major change, the first thing you should be able to articulate is what exactly you are hoping to fix by making that major change. as no-one can really explain what it is that would be fixed by leaving the EU

I would have thought there are two obvious problems with EU membership for starters: Being under the control of legislation cooked up in Brussels & having effectively no control over immigration.

Good article by Alister Heath here:
http://www.cityam.com/latest-news/allister-heath/five-lessons-be-learnt-the-accelerating-eurogeddon

Last paragraph:

The Commonwealth’s GDP is about to overtake the Eurozone’s, according to World Economics. The Eurozone is predicted to grow 2.7 per cent a year in 2012-17 (this is over-optimistic); the Commonwealth (which includes booming India, Australia and African countries) by 7.3 per cent.

I’m entirely against imperialism. Nations should govern themselves.

But imagine what would have happened had the UK chosen to maintain its trade links with independent Commonwealth nations upon decolonisation, and trade freely with the rest of the world, rather than joining the EU’s customs union, thus discriminating against its old trading partners and deliberately shifting its trading patterns towards what was to become the lowest-growth, most stagnant part of the world economy?

Conrad

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Or the right to work in Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam or Brussels on comparable wages to the UK.

Or to retire in Spain. Or to go to University in Holland. Etc.

Millions of people use these rights... And I for one would have no interest in losing them.

Yep and long ago we somehow managed to do these things, shock horror!

It's currently detrimental to the UK to have masses of folk turning up here. We have a letting agancy in the office here and now we are noticing more and more East Europeans fresh off the boat using HB. Nothing progressive about it. Plus they often send funds home, a double whamy.

pqrdef

Conrad wrote: »

Is German manufacturing in decline?

It will. The pressure to move manufacturing abroad is growing and will inevitably become irresistible.