The Great Global Warming Swindle?

west_is_best

The British Wind Energy Association, and the first hit when I Googled for "wind farm CO2 payback time". Actually, they claim less - 3 to 5 months. I'd have thought that someone who had studied wind farms for three years would have heard of them...

They would say that, most of the members of the BWEA are windfarm developers!!!!!!!! they are certainly not going to cut their own arm off are the??

It is important to recognise that peat is a major store of carbon accumulated from dead plant remains over many millennia. It is held in perpetuity because the bog’s wetness and acid conditions prevent the access of oxygen and inhibit the growth of bacteria which would otherwise rot the vegetation. Draining peat for construction reverses both these long-term processes: the soil is exposed to the air, the carbon is converted to CO2 and released slowly to the atmosphere.

Several papers from the wind industry in Denmark and the UK have addressed the first two points with estimates of payback time ranging from about six to 30 months.

However, the industry rarely, if ever, considers the last two. This is a fundamental omission as their contribution to the overall CO2 debt, in particular the last, can be far greater than all the others put together.

http://www.windaction.org/documents/7753

west_is_best

Ken68 wrote: »

Considering the strong foundations, and the 100% grant why would a wind turbine be de-commissioned ?
Apparantly, havn't done any research, California is littered with derelict wind turbines. Perhaps they are waiting for a grant to get rid.

When we had a meeting in our village hall regarding our development, one question I asked the developers was "if it wasnt for the subsidies, where would you be tonight?" his reply was, "I wouldnt be here"....... and that particular person is a director of the BWEA.

west_is_best

a)Yes they will
b) They are not intended to but about 1/3 could be possible. That's pretty significant.

Why is the C02 level rising every year, even with all these windfarms around the UK........ look on a wind developement map of Scotland, its virtually covered in developments...

west_is_best

Re. The price of energy and subsidies for wind farms: I just read a news item on the Danish Wind Energy Association website (which has a fantastic technical guide to wind turbines that I can't recommend strongly enough) which said that they had reached a point where the reduction in the cost of energy caused by harvesting it from a free resource now outweighs the initial cost of the subsidies. So it is a short-term cost for a long-term saving in economic terms though it is the long-term environmental savings that are normally seen as most significant.

Again, this is the "danish wind association" which are mostly developers.

"Most of the turbines scrapped to date operated for less than 16 years (Bülow, 2002), so it is very difficult to assess their effective lifespan or economy. Furthermore, there has been little, if any, closure of conventional power plant in response to the advent of wind power."

Throughout February 2003, for example, wind speeds and the generation of wind power were very low (Bülow, 2003), while in January 2005 a hurricane forced wind turbines to shut down within hours of running at near maximum output (Andersen, 2005a). Levels of output are very sensitive to conditions.

only about 4% of domestic power consumption was satisfied by wind turbines

As a matter of fact, despite West Denmark’s massive carpet of wind turbines, its carbon emissions have recently been rising (Bruun, 2005), and a leading Elsam expert has intimated that “[Increased development of wind turbines does not reduce Danish CO2 emissions]”

Conclusions

The West Danish model clearly shows that the installation of large numbers of wind turbines can lead to severe and expensive problems with power transmission, and seriously degrade wildlife habitats and the aesthetic value of land- and seascapes for little or no reduction in carbon emissions. It is therefore imperative that energy conservation schemes and alternative sources of renewable energy are more thoroughly explored before large swathes of unique UK countryside and coastal scenery are lost to industrial wind stations. Conservation measures alone could reduce UK carbon emissions by 30% (Coppinger, 2003).

http://www.countryguardian.net/vmason.htm

west_is_best

these particular link must be read, as these are on EON website, EON are a subsiduary of Powergen........ and too are wind developers....

http://www.eon-kraftwerke.com/frameset_english/energy_eng/inno_reg_ene_eng/inn_reg_ene_wind_power_eng/inn_reg_ene_win_schatten_eng/inn_reg_ene_win_schatten_eng.jsp

http://www.eon-kraftwerke.com/frameset_english/energy_eng/inno_reg_ene_eng/inn_reg_ene_wind_power_eng/inn_reg_ene_win_contra_eng/irewc_ausbau.jsp

http://www.eon-kraftwerke.com/frameset_english/energy_eng/inno_reg_ene_eng/inn_reg_ene_wind_power_eng/inn_reg_ene_win_contra_eng/irewc_sch_eng.jsp

I think, this say's it all...........

west_is_best

if we go back to the 1st posting about climate change.

This aricle I thought was very interesing.

Climate change is natural. Global temperatures have been generally rising since the end of the Little Ice Age about 150 years ago, when the River Thames would regularly freeze over. Most of this rise preceded global industrial activity, which only kicked in about 1940. And from 1940 to 1975, global temperatures dropped slightly.

A thousand years ago, during the Medieval Warm Period, the climate was warmer than today, and vineyards grew even in northern England. And 8,000 years ago, during the Holocene Maximum, it was considerably warmer than today. Yet polar bears, which are supposedly threatened by current warming, survived through both of these periods.

The Greenland icecap, ice-core sampling shows, goes back at least 11,000 years, meaning it too existed even through these warmer periods.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDg5ZGU0MTFjY2E2ZWIzMmFmMjU4MzIyZDRiZTM3ZDE

gromituk

daymo wrote: »

How can being taxed to the hilt under the pretence that it is saving the planet,stop a natural cycle?

It can't, and I never said it could. Either you're just not understanding a very basic point, or you just don't want to.

The news today thatr 4 x 4s will be taxed up to £400 is a point worth noting,don`t these people already pay more fuel duty than normal car owners?

Yes they do, but there are other reasons to tax them: the amount of damage they do to other people in collisions, for a start. But I do agree that fuel duty should be much higher, because it is a fairer tax, and it is a more immediate one - even the most dense can see those numbers clocking up on the petrol pump.

BTW has anyone noticed that SW trains have introduced fare increases of up to 20% for those who travel just outside of peak times? That will get people out of their cars......:rolleyes:

But I thought you didn't want to be "taxed to the hilt"? :rolleyes:

gromituk

Lynwen wrote: »

They would say that, most of the members of the BWEA are windfarm developers!!!!!!!! they are certainly not going to cut their own arm off are the??

Of course they're not, in exactly the same way that an irrational wind farm hater like you isn't going to accept anything that contradicts what you think - such as the other report I mention alongside the industry's figure! So you still say that wind farms never recover their embodied CO2, like you burst into this forum proclaiming?

All you do is spout soundbites Daily Mail-style, which all collapse under the slightest scrutiny. Unfortunately on a forum like this you are likely to encounter more intelligent people who can see through what you say. Like the other poster I've just criticised, why is it so hard for you to understand that just because natural climate change occurs, man-made climate change can't occur as well? Or is it such an obvious point that rather than accept it, you merely ignore it?

Ken68

All good stuff, Lynwen.
I kid you not my little town is surroun ded by large turbines, 20 at the last count and more to come.
Am very interested in what happens in 16 years.
Every farmer seems to be applying for permission to build. They not only get paid NOT to grow crops, but now get paid to generate electricity..All for the price of a plot the size of a large haystack.And what was a farm track for access is made into a road, probably 100% grant as well.
The world has gone mad. Swindle.

gromituk

Ken, how is it "all good stuff" to deny that wind farms recover their embodied CO2? It's one thing to be skeptical about them (which I respect, and share to a certain degree); it's quite another to swallow every fib that's told about them in order to support it. That's not skepticism; it's fanaticism.