School appeals - help offered

susancs

emmmski wrote: »

Hi,

Was wondering if anyone was able to advise me please:-

We moved in Aug 13, I have 2 children at school (yr 1&3). We live 0.1 mile from our local school. However when we moved we were told it was full and that the only school with places was 7 miles away. They started there is Sept but it does take its toll, extra 140 miles travelling per week etc etc. plus the school they are at now, because of the distance pupils from there will go on to a different secondary school from my children, this is a worry for me, I'd like them to be at primary school with at least some of the children they will go on to secondary with. They don't know any children locally which is a real shame.
I have contacted the admissions, and been told that they have a place in year 3 but not one in year 1 :-( , they have put my dd on year one waiting list and she's top.
I'm now left in a real problem. And this is where I hoping I might get some guidance. If I accept the year 3 place , they will go to 2 different schools. I cannot physically be in 2 places at one at the start and end of school day and cannot afford to pay for childcare for one while I pick up the other. Will this issue have any weight with admissions?
Also when they told me my daughter will be top of year one waiting list. They said the year group is currently one over capacity so would not offer any places until it was reduced to normal numbers. Does this seems strange? I ask because its a yr one group so I thought class size rules applied ? And as they had already gone one over, they appear to have set a precedent, does this add strengthen any appeal I could possibly submit?
I'm so worried that if I don't accept the place, a year one place will come up next week, next month etc and the year 3 place will have gone. It stands to reason that the chances of the two places coming up together will be slim but feel like I'm stuffed as if I do accept the place, logistically I just couldn't do it.
Have I got a leg to stand on, appealing to get my dd into year one?

Thank you in advance.

Emmmski.

I know it seems unfair but childcare issues do not usually carry any weight in regard to school admission criteria being applied. Ideally you probably need to accept the year 3 place asmay not be available when a year 1 place becomes available and try to do some short term juggling to get to both schools. As you live beside one of the schools, could you speak to the school about dropping off your year 3 child a bit earlier (e.g. 20 mins before school) and that should allow time for a 7 mile drive to the other school? Maybe ask the other school about collecting a bit earlier, so you could be on time for the year 3 child pick up. Some schools also offer really cheap clubs before or after school run by teaching staff that you might look into as a short term solution to dropping off and picking up

poet123

If the class is already over 30 the school will have had to employ an additional qualified teacher to work alongside the designated class teacher, so you could argue that having already gone down that route one extra in the class could be possible.

emmmski

Thank you all for your replies. Still not sure what to do. I've looked on the local schools website and their published class size is 30. There is 5 mins difference between the finish times of the schools and although there is aftercare available, I would have to pay for care up until 6pm for the sake of 30 mins, 5 days a week. That's just not feasible. I am thinking about meeting with the head of the local school and seeing what the situation is with the yr 1 class already being one over, if they have had to employ addition staff, perhaps they have capacity for one more?
I'm leaning towards submitting an appeal for dd for the yr one place and if she's successful,accept the yr 3 place officially and move them both. If unsuccessful we'll just have to wait and keep them at the other school in the Hope two places come up together!,I figure we having nothing to lose?.
In response to Teamlowes comments. I had no idea that the LA had an obligation to provide a local school? When we moved they told us all schools but the one 7 miles away and one 8.5 miles away were full, so there wasn't much choice. It's a popular area. Wished I'd have known that in August.

Thank you all again. :-)

TeamLowe

poet123 wrote: »

If the class is already over 30 the school will have had to employ an additional qualified teacher to work alongside the designated class teacher, so you could argue that having already gone down that route one extra in the class could be possible.

That's no longer the case, it used to be that a school would have a 'grace' period for the remainder of the academic year before qualifying measures had to be taken- ie hiring additional teachers, finding a new classroom for children they had to take over numbers

since the most recent update to the code the grace period extends to when the child reaches the end of Y2, so the end of infant class size limitations and therefore qualifying measures need never be taken

That's not to say an individual schools won't choose to hire extra staff but that's unlikely considering tight budgets and even if they did it would like be a short term contract until the numbers dropped below 30 again

Emmmski sometimes it's the way the question is asked unfortunately- what schools in the area have spaces for my children? Vs we now live at this address, where are you going to place my children?
It sounds like you asked the first one, got the answer 'nearest school with room is 7 miles away' and you asked for your kids to have those places but really at that point you should have been advised about reasonable distance so I do think the admissions authority have not been fair to you and I'd definitely make that part of your appeal- panel members rightly have a lot of sympathy with parents who don't know the intricacies of the system and its the opinion of the panel on the day that counts as to what is unreasonable or maladministration

Don't forget you can appeal for more than one school at a time, so I'd be looking for a school closer than the current one whose intake wasn't a multiple of 30 to appeal for both children as a fall back.

Be careful about speaking to the head teacher- it's great to get a feel for the school and shows a lot of consideration has gone into your choice but many's the time a parent has sat in front of a panel saying the head teacher has said having my kid would no trouble and they definitely have loads of room and such false hope is given when the same head teacher is then very very upset when appeals are granted as they don't have the room or money.
Definitely don't ask the head teacher to write a letter of support for your appeal- the admission authority's case is on behalf of the headteacher so it's inappropriate for them to do so and it doesn't go down well with panels in my experience
And definitely don't

poet123

Interesting, when did that change come into force?

peachyprice

emmmski, have you considered taking the yr3 place and home schooling the year 1 child until a place becomes available? If you're at the top of the list it may not be for too long. Home schooling yr1 should be relatively easy and seems the simplest option.

TeamLowe

poet123 wrote: »

Interesting, when did that change come into force?

the statutory admissions appeals code and relevant guidance was updated in February 2012 for the 2012/13 school year admissions.

It removed the need to take qualifying measures and the need for the school to prove that the admission of an additional child/ren would prejudice the provision of education and efficient use of resources. Now they just need to prove that Infant Class Size Prejudice would occur should another pupil be admitted - ie just need to state the school has 3 classrooms and 3 teachers for its 3 classes of 30.

poet123

TeamLowe wrote: »

the statutory admissions appeals code and relevant guidance was updated in February 2012 for the 2012/13 school year admissions.

It removed the need to take qualifying measures and the need for the school to prove that the admission of an additional child/ren would prejudice the provision of education and efficient use of resources. Now they just need to prove that Infant Class Size Prejudice would occur should another pupil be admitted - ie just need to state the school has 3 classrooms and 3 teachers for its 3 classes of 30.

Could you point me to the section of the code where the requirement has been removed please?

This is of interest to me as it seems that some schools are still using/referring to in their criteria (School Admissions Code 2010 – para 2.62) and still referring to qualifying measures i.e the provision of another teacher beyond the 30 number (leaving out excepted pupils)

TeamLowe

my apologies, it's in the Admissions 2012 Code
http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/statutory/g00213254/school-admissions-code-2012

2.15 Infant class size – Infant classes (those where the majority of children will reach the age of 5, 6 or 7 during the school year) must not contain more than 30 pupils with a single school teacher. Additional children may be admitted under limited exceptional circumstances. These children will remain an ‘excepted pupil’ for the time they are in an infant class or until the class numbers fall back to the current infant class size limit.

So the schools in question are giving incorrect advice as they've not updated since the new code, although it only came into affect for this school year.


Emmmski, looking for that also meant i found this

3.16 Local authority powers of direction (general) - A local authority has the power to direct the admission authority for any maintained school in its area to admit a child even when the school is full. The local authority can only make such a direction in respect of a child in the local authority’s area who has been refused entry to, or has been permanently excluded from, every suitable school within a reasonable distance. The local authority must choose a school that is a reasonable distance from the child’s home and from which the child is not permanently excluded. It must not choose...a school that would have to take measures to avoid breaking the rules on infant class sizes if those measures would prejudice the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources.

So as I say, they have to find your children a school within a 'reasonable distance' from your home and if this school has intakes of a multiple of 30 then your child could still be put there *if* the school could take your child without taking any extra measures.
This may be the school you want that's 0.1 miles from your house or one a little further afield but a lot closer than 7 miles!

If I was you I would complain to the head of the admissions team, whoever that may be, about how they've placed your children, quoting the above, and if you're not satisfied you can complain to the Schools Adjuticator.

poet123

TeamLowe wrote: »

my apologies, it's in the Admissions 2012 Code
http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/statutory/g00213254/school-admissions-code-2012



So the schools in question are giving incorrect advice as they've not updated since the new code, although it only came into affect for this school year.


.

So, it is still clear that aside from permitted exceptions (which are laid down) a class must not exceed 30 with one teacher. Which surely still means that 31 pupils would require an additional teacher ( defined as having QTS) to adhere to the regs?