ATOS are nothing but liars

Morglin

My best advice (having worked for the DWP, in a previous 'life', and having now migrated from IB to ESA successfully), is to submit as much medical evidence as possible, from as many medics as possible, and give as much info on the form as you can.

If you have to go for a medical examination, and not everyone does, then take someone who can take notes of what is said, and I beleive some areas do allow for recording now.

If you get turned down for what you feel you should be getting, then appeal straight away (it will always go for reconsideration first anyway).

ATOS have been seen as less than adequate, and because they can't get enough doctors to do it, they are employing HCP's with not much evidence that they actually understand the criterias.

This site is pretty good for guides, advice etc., although it does cost approx £20 per year to subscribe:

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/home

It also has an 'assess yourself' bit, which although doesn't mean an ATOS HCP will reach the same conclusions, it does give you an indicator of what is on the form and what carries what points levels. It also lists exemptions and 'special circumstances' criteria.

Lin

nad1611

rogerblack wrote: »

Incompetence, slipshod behavior, just ticking the boxes, negligence, impossible working conditions.

Yes anything but lying.

Lying is a positive act.
It requires a decision to lie.

A builder who throws bricks off a roof without looking to see if someones passing by isn't attempting murder, they are being negligent.

To go into the process of getting your decision overturned based on allegation that the health-care-professional (HCP) lied about you raises the obvious issue of why would they?

Why wouldn't they, we certainly seem to have evidence of people stating exactly the same sort of scenario as mine.

They have never seen you before in their lives, and you're just one of a dozen people they will see that day.

Exactly so they don't care what their assumptions mean to you at the end of the day. They'll probably never seee you again either.

Unless you're going to claim that they hate all women/black people/people from yorkshire/diddn't like your face, or that ATOS train people to lie - you then run into a problem.

Hate doesn't need to be involved for lies to be told.
The problems with the work capability assessment as done by ATOS are complex, and not due to a few bad apples in the system that go out of their way to lie.
Your evidence is?

If this was the case, it'd be simple to fix.

They are systemic, and caused by the whole structure.
The LIMA software plays its part, in that it may - on the basis of the responses to questions asked by the software prefill large amounts of text and conclusions.

The HCP can then go on to edit these into correctness - but...

Considering it from the other side for the moment.
Being a HCP is hard. As far as I can see it's the only side you've seen it from! Yes it's hard but they get paid well for it and have a great responsibility to be honest and thorough, no matter what their time constraints.

You are not simply taking down what the claimant says.
You are trying to ask questions suggested by the LIMA software, select the most appropriate response to the question, then edit the response that LIMA may have filled in for you.
But the claimant may be continuing to talk during this, and both paying attention to the claimant, and the screen is hard!
And the thing they've just said after question 14 may mean you need to go back and edit question 2, and enter text into question 18.
And they're still talking.
If they're not up to the task what are they doing about it?

Combine this with the fact that some HCPs may be poor typists, and the pressure to see more claimants an hour, and you have a plenty of reasons for why reports are poor, without needing to invoke lying at all.
As an ex HCP myself we weren't in the habit of cutting corners where patient/client care was paramount. Pressure to look after patients well was far more important than how many we saw,probably because we didn't get paid more for seeing more.

To address your case.
The 'Can do all her household chores' is probably filled in from some other response you made automatically by the software - perhaps after you'd answered about the washing machine, and was not edited properly afterwards.
Not the case, when I got my form back when I was appealing the case, this little nugget of info was in a separate box all nicely hand written, not some prefilled section of the Software.The only edit could have been was to strike it completely from the records, because it was untrue.

The 'washing machine' question was likely not intended to ask about your ability to do the washing machine, but about your ability to 'perform sequential tasks'.

If they then followed up to your 'no' with some other question to assess this - they may not have logged the fact you can't when it comes to the part that generated the 'can do all household tasks'.
As said they logged it in their own hand writing. If my memory serves me correctly there wasn't even a question as to household tasks, but individual activities. It was the Assesssor who wrapped it all up into one nice little falsehood.

For example - you might have been asked at some point 'do you get any help from anybody in the house' - and it then automatically added that phrase when you said no.

See responses above.

Look I'm not saying they are all liars and out to change everything we say, but as you say the system is flawed and they get round things by doing what's easiest at times. As professionals I wonder that as a body they are not challenging the system themselves. Add to this the monetary incentives there's always going to be problems.

I think there are sufficient numbers of people who are genuinely aggrieved about their treatment and the least they should be able to expecct is that their case be heard and reported honestly. When you are genuinely unwell it is a terrible thing to have to go through this ordeal of appealing, my health deteriorated even more during that process and frankly I don't know how I got through it. The ones I feel really sorry for are those who just accept it all because they can't themselves or have no one to assist them in appealing.

Mojisola

My son recently had his ESA medical. When asked to stand to do some of the "exercises", he had a dizzy spell and had to sit down suddenly. The nurse said "I won't ask to to do anything that you need to stand for. I don't want you falling over".

What did her report say - that he did all the exercises as requested and had no problems with any of them.

We challenged this in the appeal and got the response that, as they couldn't verify this in any way, they weren't going to take it into consideration.

schrodie

doyouwantfrieswiththat wrote: »

Was reading through my fathers assessment from ATOS, she has plain lied in most of it, for example she said he was able to 'hold door open on his way to assessment room' 1. she led us (how the hell did we know where it was) 2. I was with him and HE DIDN'T OPEN ANY DOOR.

She also put in the report that he ONLY visits his GP and doesnt attend any specialists.
LIES - he attends a specialist for his condition regularly at the Hospital, he told her this but yet she lied on the report.

The whole report was a joke, the 'Doctor' put words in his mouth, he got confused but she wouldnt let me speak, she tooks things out of context to suit the descision against him.

SO WRONG!, Sorry but Im just so angry, lets hope the appeal people are more understanding.

Complain about this so called "healthcare professional" to Atos and also write to your MP about the experience.

This sad tale does demonstrate the need for people undergoing a WCA carried out by Atos to insist that the WCA is recorded as is now their right. Also to appeal the decision straight away.

Muttleythefrog

rogerblack wrote: »

Lying is a positive act.
It requires a decision to lie.

For information purposes to you and others I was intrigued by my recent re-assessment. I was given face to face medical in 2010 and put in Support group as 'would pose significant risk to others if found capable of WRA'. I faced re-assessment at beginning this year. Completed ESA50 comprehensively quoting directly into answer statements from other evidence (copies included) which were CPN report, psychiatric report and that ESA85 of previous assessment. In additional info section I claimed my health had deteriorated and that I agreed with conclusion of the ESA85.. I also made a simple case for some other Support Gp descriptors applying.

ATOS decided to request ESA113 GP factual report completion. My GP duly had done this and ATOS supplied nurse completed ESA85A to DWP stating "The 113 indicates there would be substantial mental or physical risk if the client were (are we in Yorkshire?..lol) found capable of work or WRA because of deteriorating state of mental health". But after much hassle I finally got the ESA113 copy and it makes absolutely no supportive statement of what the ATOS nurse claims except regarding deteriorating mental health... in fact in Q5 Does the patient have a history of threatening or violent behaviour my GP wrongly indicates No... rather troubling since my records should hold that information. In Q4 regarding Appropriateness of behaviour there is nothing entered by my GP.

It strikes me that the nurse who completed the ESA85A was heavily swayed by the previous ESA85 and didn't state so or was liberal with the truth to say the least for a reason unknown.

nad1611

Mojisola wrote: »

My son recently had his ESA medical. When asked to stand to do some of the "exercises", he had a dizzy spell and had to sit down suddenly. The nurse said "I won't ask to to do anything that you need to stand for. I don't want you falling over".

What did her report say - that he did all the exercises as requested and had no problems with any of them.

We challenged this in the appeal and got the response that, as they couldn't verify this in any way, they weren't going to take it into consideration.

This is sadly a perfect case where if recording had been done, your sons case could have been completely different. I think the terrible thing is you have no reason not to believe when they say something like, i won't ask you to do such and such.. we put our trust in these people and are very badly let down. The time for automatic recordings should be on the agenda and soon.

kaya

Atos lie , it's not a secret, even the ASA ruled that they remove misleading and untrue information from their website , they have ignored them and left it just as it is , what a foreign software company is doing adjudicating over the fitness of people to work is beyond me, until you realise that they get over £100,000,000 of our tax money every year, then it starts to fall into place

Heycock

Firstly, the majority of assessors at ATOS have no formal medical qualification. There just aren't enough medically qualified people in the country to staff hospitals, nursing homes, private clinics etc etc AND do these assessments!. So the person you see will possibly have come fresh from a 2 day course in a swanky hotel somewhere which will have basically shown them how to fill in a series of tick boxes. They do not actually make the decision but the way they format the info on the form WILL inform the final decision. With such a national backlog on NEW claims and the existing backlog on old claims they ARE under pressure to eliminate as many as possible. So, DON'T expect accuracy or professional acumen at the ATOS assessment stage. Sad but true. It is HIGHLY unlikely they will have the professional knowledge to ask the relevant questions apart from Stand up, sit down, lift that.Etc. If it's a mental health issue for example, they don't know where to start.

Secondly. When you go in...take a notebook and pen in. Let the assessor know you are taking notes. ASK for their name and ask them to spell it. ASK for their professional qualification. Tell them you will need this if you need to appeal any decision. If it is a mental health issue, in particular, and they have no relevant background, ask if you can be referred to someone qualified. That goes for any other condition other than the standard ones of dicky back etc.

People, people...please don't submit to these jobsworths. The thing they fear most is exposure at appeal...that's why they don't volunteer their name, title, experience and qualifications unless pressed.

HB58

"Firstly, the majority of assessors at ATOS have no formal medical qualification."

Not so, the HCPs are just that - health care professionals - doctors, nurses, midwives and physiotherapists. I am not arguing that this makes them competant to do this job, but it is not true to state that they have no medical qualifications.

schrodie

HB58 wrote: »

"Firstly, the majority of assessors at ATOS have no formal medical qualification."

Not so, the HCPs are just that - health care professionals - doctors, nurses, midwives and physiotherapists. I am not arguing that this makes them competant to do this job, but it is not true to state that they have no medical qualifications.

From the Atos website Here

"All our 1404* healthcare professionals are fully trained to undertake disability assessments. Doctors are registered with the General Medical Council, nurses with the Nursing and Midwifery Council and physiotherapists with the Health Professions Council. All healthcare professionals are approved by the Chief Medical Adviser of the DWP.

The reason why the [previous] government went from using doctors to using non-doctors to carry out these assessments was.......to save money!!!